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Thread: .221 Askins

  1. #21
    Boolit Master


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    I picked up a barrel blank from a member here so when I get time I will do some more work.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master


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    Duplicate

  3. #23
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    Jmorris asked for pictures. Here is what I think is about..
    Not sure how I missed it back then but I did and thanks. What is your load data using cast/j words?

  4. #24
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
    Not sure how I missed it back then but I did and thanks. What is your load data using cast/j words?
    I have not gotten that far yet. I have only shot primed cases with a 22 cal pellet, no powder, similar to Aguila 22 Colibri ammo.
    After pulling bullets from 22LR ammo and weighing the powder I found the charge weight to be 1gr of either Bullseye or WW 231, both powders were used. I would use 1/2gr to start with 40 gr bullet pulled from 22LR ammo. I have a bunch of ammo that was submerged during Hurricane Katrina and Ihave pulled the bullets, reclaimed the powder and plan to use the cases to make 223 bullets.
    The reduced charge is due to reduced internal case capacity be cause of the primer pocket and the bullet being seated inside the case.
    I think slower burning powder like Unique would work better and allow a larger charge weight that would easier to handle.
    Last edited by deltaenterprizes; 03-13-2016 at 07:18 AM.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy

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    There are several 22 LR reloadable Wildcat cases out there,
    Sauiber forum is a good starting/checking place,
    for any small calibers.

    I have designed and built a Wildcat reloadable, 22 LR,
    called the XST Weasel in 17,20 & 22 calibers from the Hornet brass,
    total case length is .600", has a .200" long neck, with a .330" long case body,
    this case has a max case capacity of 5.60 grs, H20.

    Using several different powders,
    a 35gr bullet is pushed to over 1900 fps, from 18" bbl,
    1.5 grs BE gives just under 1500 fps, 35gr,
    1.5 grs BE gives just over 1350 fps, 45gr,
    and most loads are 40-50% efficient.

    I sure wish I could find mold in the 25-30 gr range,
    then I would have a complete system.

    Tia,
    Don

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    The 22 Flea is a 32 Auto necked to 22 cal, IIRC.

  7. #27
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    I wich I could find more info on the .221 Askins but Pachmeyer Gun Works that did the conversion is not around anymore !

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    My memory tells me the 22 Hornet was developed by using 22 Velo Dog cases. So it should not be a great task to recreate Askin's round. Which by the way ended his career in competition shooting as the officials thought he was trying to get around the rules and Askins took umbrage at their ruling.
    Nope, no relation between 22 velo dog and 22 hornet.
    Only way to make velo dog is in a lathe or other expensive techniques.

    And he was trying to get around the rules, but in truth it was because the rule makers couldn't think outside the box when they wrote them.
    Last edited by Artful; 03-14-2016 at 03:13 AM.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltaenterprizes View Post
    I wich I could find more info on the .221 Askins but Pachmeyer Gun Works that did the conversion is not around anymore !



    http://bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

    http://www.colt22.com/askins.html

    http://www.americanrifleman.org/arti...skins-hot-rod/

    http://casualshooter.blogspot.com/20...21-askins.html

    Before World War II, Col. Charles Askins won the National Championship using, among others, a Colt .22 pistol converted to fire a custom centerfire round based on the French Velo-Dog revolver round.

    "In 1937, while preparing for the National Matches, I developed the .221 Askins. This was a .22 caliber automatic which fired a .22 centerfire ctg. The NRA rules in '37 stipulated that "any centerfire caliber" could be fired in the Nationals. At that time the only useable centerfire cal was limited to the revolvers. You could fire the .32 S&W long which was the smallest caliber and one yet accurate enough to compete with. I concluded if I could develop a .22 centerfire I'd have the boys over a barrel."

    "The .221 Askins was the 5.5 Velo-Dog ctg shortened in length to exactly the .22 long rifle casing; the bullet was the standard .22 long rifle leaden slug at 40 grains. The Velo-Dog was designed to be fired in a French revolver; it had a rimmed casing. My gunsmith and I ran every case through the lathe and reduced the diameter of the rim to the same specs as the .22 long rifle rimfire shell."

    "I had Frank Pachmayr alter the .22 Colt Woodsman to fire the centerfire ctg. This was not too difficult. He simply countersunk the face of the bolt to take the slightly thicker rim of the 5.5 ctg. He also redesigned the extractor to handle the new ctg. Changing the firing pin to strike center and not on the rim was no great chore."

    "The pistol performed very reliably. There were no more jams than with the .22 rimfire and the accuracy was very good. I have forgotten what powder charge I used now but it was about 1-1/2 grains Bullseye. The biggest problem was saving empties. I had to erect a canvas sheeting to act as a baffle."

    "I won the All-Around championship of the United States in 1937. In this match you had to fire once over the NM Course with the .22 rimfire, once over with the centerfire (everyone but me shot a .38 revolver) and once over the course with the .45 auto. The .221 Askins accounted for my winning."

    "It also caused a storm of controversy! Word got all over Camp Perry about the pistol and those jazbos who were most likely to beat me howled the loudest. I got word before the Orton Match that my gun would be protested not because it was a .22 caliber (remember the NRA rules said, in those days, "any centerfire caliber") but because the rear sight was behind the hammer. I got wind of this and ran into Port Clinton and had an auto mechanic move the rear sight forward on the slide and simply solder it in place. If you get this gun you will see the somewhat crude job he did."

    "The pistol really upset C.B. Lister and old Gen Reckord. They got the Board of Directors together, those who were at Perry, and they discussed barring my pistol somehow. But they could not quite decide how the rule book could be changed on such short notice. So I fired the highly controversial .221 Askins and won the All-Around Championship."

    "The year following, let me assure you, the rules had been changed to read ".32 caliber and larger." It has read that way ever since!"


    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=verdana]Ol' Charlie wasn't real consistent in his stories. There is one version in which he said Border Patrol brass pressured him not to shoot a gun where the equipment was more important than the shooter, and, as best I recall "I threw the gun in the ash can. It lies rusting in my gun cabinet to this day."

    http://manlyexcellence.com/forum/vie...013ecae7a2f810
    Last edited by Artful; 03-14-2016 at 03:23 AM.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  10. #30
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    Thanks, Artful! I wonder how they modified the the magazine to function.
    Making brass is time consuming, once I get something working I look at making tooling to streamline the process.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master 1989toddm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artful View Post
    Nope, no relation between 22 velo dog and 22 hornet.
    Only way to make velo dog is in a lathe or other expensive techniques.

    And he was trying to get around the rules, but in truth it was because the rule makers couldn't think outside the box when they wrote them.
    There is a company in San Diego that converts .22 Hornet into .22CCM which is essentially .22 Velo Dog.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=schr...tate=kp:mad:pd
    Give him a call and tell him what you would like, get his take on it. Warning, he will talk your leg off!
    Looking for Ideal 429348 and 429352.

    For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8,9

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltaenterprizes View Post
    Thanks, Artful! I wonder how they modified the the magazine to function.

    Making brass is time consuming, once I get something working I look at making tooling to streamline the process.
    If you reread it, you will see that they modified the cartridge to fit the 22LR magazine - IE shortened it and reshaped the rim to be 22LR diameter.


    from left to right, the .22 LR, the .22 Win Mag, and the 5.5 Velo Dog


    A better view


    From L 22-327, 22 Velo Dog, 22 RF mag & 22 Hornet
    Last edited by Artful; 03-14-2016 at 11:16 AM.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1989toddm View Post
    There is a company in San Diego that converts .22 Hornet into .22CCM which is essentially .22 Velo Dog.
    Interesting - Thanks for posting

    .22 CCM / .22 Cooper Centerfire Magnum (Accurate Loading Guide #2) Reloading Data

    The .22 CCM can be thought of as a reloadable .22 WMR. Its performance actually places it midway between the .22 WMR and the .22 Hornet. The maximum loads shown do not exceed the 48,500 C.U.P. limit established by Cooper Arms.

    Looks quite a bit snappier than the 221 Askins or 5.5 Velo Dog

    Read more:http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...#ixzz42tJfQwC2
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  14. #34
    Boolit Master 1989toddm's Avatar
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    Not to hijack, but just throw this out there..if y'all know of someone with a 22 ccm reamer that would be available to rent, let me know please.
    Looking for Ideal 429348 and 429352.

    For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8,9

  15. #35
    Boolit Master


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    There are a couple companies that rent them, 4D and Clymer are 2 I can remember!

  16. #36
    Boolit Master


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    Thanks 1989toddm, I will give him a call!

  17. #37
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    Here is the Current CIP drawing for the '5.76 Velo-Dog' cartridge:
    http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation...l-en-page3.pdf

    Along with:Ammoguide Interactive (AI) .22LR case Drawing ,
    the AI .22WRF case drawing ,
    and AI .22WMR case Drawing .

    I guess the 5.5 caliber Velo-Dog version is not listed by CIP any more?

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 09-27-2019 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Corrected typing error

  18. #38
    Boolit Master

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    .221 askins and 5.5 Velo Dog case Drawings.

    221 Askins V1 A NC Model (1).pdf This is a drawing of both the 'parent' 5.5 Velo Dog and the .221 Askins derived from it and are based upon both Col. Askins comments as Quoted by others and upon information contained in "Textbook of Firearms Investigation, Identification and Evidence" by Major Julian S. Hatcher and Published by Small Arms Technical Publishing Company, copyrighted 1935.

    I believe both cartridges used 'small Pistol Boxer Primers.

    The 5.5 Velo Dog used a Jacketed 45 Grain bullet of .48" long, overall Cartridge length of 1.35" and Muzzle Velocity from 2" barrel of 760fps with Muzzle energy of 56 ft. lbs.

    The .221 Askins used a Cast Lead 40 grain bullet, overall cartridge length of .995", case length of .613" (same as contemporary .22LR Rimfire) and loaded to best Target use velocities that cycled the Colt 'Woodsman' semi-automatic Target pistol that was modified to utilize the Cartridge.

    The drawing was made using AutoCAD 2000 software and converted into a PDF file via CutePDF software.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 09-27-2019 at 11:07 AM. Reason: corrected typing error

  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    Today "Ammoguide Interactive" added the .221 Askins, including a Case Drawing, to their Cartridge Master Database.

    Also, today they added its 'parent'; the 5,5 Velodog cartridge, including a Case drawing.

    These 1930s cartridges are part of the History of wildcat development.

    Chev. William

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    Arrested development work due to July-August Hot and Humid Weather Here making work in my Patio 'Reloading shop' too uncomfortable (Sweating Too much in the Daytime and Too many biting bugs in the Nighttime).
    I am sure eventually the Weather will Moderate and I will get back into reloading again.

    Chev. William

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check