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Thread: .221 Askins

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artful View Post



    http://bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

    http://www.colt22.com/askins.html

    http://www.americanrifleman.org/arti...skins-hot-rod/

    http://casualshooter.blogspot.com/20...21-askins.html



    [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=verdana]Ol' Charlie wasn't real consistent in his stories. There is one version in which he said Border Patrol brass pressured him not to shoot a gun where the equipment was more important than the shooter, and, as best I recall "I threw the gun in the ash can. It lies rusting in my gun cabinet to this day."

    http://manlyexcellence.com/forum/vie...013ecae7a2f810
    The funny thing is that I have shot "2700" matches with Jim Lenardson who won the Camp Perry Pistol national matches a handfull of times. The 2700 course is slow, timed, and rapid fire for each of the 3 guns, 22, center fire, and 45...most folks just use 45 for both center fire and 45 now. Well plenty of times I saw Jim shoot better with the 45 than the 22...the 22 was a model 52 smith with Eley ammo...I have seen them go well under an inch from a machine rest at 50 yards.

    Just a funny side note..... Askins was a character to put it nicely .
    Both ends WHAT a player

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
    Chev. William's Avatar
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    September whether has continued uncomfortable for Outside work in my Patio 'reloading shop' but I have had some progress:
    1. I received Five PT&G Blank die bodies pilot drilled 3/8" through.
    Combining these with the Redding 'TiN coated' sizing Bushings I bought earlier will give me swaging dies to take .25ACP cases down to .22LR case diameters.

    2. I bought off Ebay a 'takeoff' Ruger MKI Barrel and a Ruger MKI 'broken' bolt assembly. The Bolt assembly had a Worn and sheared firing pin retaining pin and a broken Recoil spring assembly, both of which should be Easy replacements.
    This gives me 'models' to measure for possible modifications or replacement machining.

    3. I ordered a pair of 3/4" ID Drill bushings to use as ring gauges to measure channels in the bolt body. They should arrive this week.

    4. I have possession of the Ruger MKII .22 pistol so now have physical things to 'play with' in contemplating a conversion project.

    5. An Ebay Purchase gave me a Beretta .25ACP Magazine and it actually fits the Ruger Magazine well; but, of course, is too short to function and the feed lips are at a different angle.
    I wonder if a Ruger 22/45 Pistol handle would match better in feed angle?
    A call to my Local Gun Shop stopped that idea as the 22/45 uses the same magazine as
    The 22 auto Pistol, with the same steep angle feed lips.

    6. Further thinking on this idea will need to be done before any metal is cut for a conversion.
    Both the Bolt face and the Bolt firing pin channel would need modifications.
    The firing pin would need modification or replacement.
    To use the .221 Askins case design, even modified by using a .25ACP as the parent case, will require some chamber modifications and magazine modifications.

    Chev. William

  3. #43
    Boolit Master


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    Looking forward to seeing your advancement in this project!

  4. #44
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    Pondering things:
    I wonder if a change in cartridge designation should be considered due to the change in 'parent cases' from thick rimed 5.5 Velo dog to thinner rimed .25ACP or 5.7x28mm?

    I wonder how much Time would it take to machine a 'Ruger .22LR Auto Pistol Barrel Tenon from scratch?

    I wonder if it would be useful to convert a MKi Bolt to CF?

    I Wonder if the MKIV bolt is stronger in design than the MKI?

    I Wonder how difficult it will be to reform Beretta .25ACP Magazine feed Lips to feed in the Ruger?
    (Assuming two magazines welded together to make the longer Body required.)

    I Wonder if a Ruger Magazine follower would work in a Beretta Modified Magazine?

    I Wonder if the Beretta Magazine follower would work to feed in a Ruger?

    Chev. William

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    Pondering things:
    I wonder if a change in cartridge designation should be considered due to the change in 'parent cases' from thick rimed 5.5 Velo dog to thinner rimed .25ACP or 5.7x28mm?

    My current thinking is that is should be changed or modified to reflect the different case parent source as they would NOT be directly interchangeable.
    As to What change, i am still in quandary.


    I wonder how much Time would it take to machine a 'Ruger .22LR Auto Pistol Barrel Tenon from scratch?

    I am Still researching this question.

    I wonder if it would be useful to convert a MKi Bolt to CF?

    I Wonder if the MKIV bolt is stronger in design than the MKI?

    to date it seems they are equal in design strengths as they seem to be almost the same in dimensions, material, and heat treatment hardness.

    I Wonder how difficult it will be to reform Beretta .25ACP Magazine feed Lips to feed in the Ruger?
    (Assuming two magazines welded together to make the longer Body required.)

    I am still researching this question. Littlle Information found yet but may be feasible with some custom tooling (form tool and then Anneal and reharden after forming).

    I Wonder if a Ruger Magazine follower would work in a Beretta Modified Magazine?

    Still Unknown.

    I Wonder if the Beretta Magazine follower would work to feed in a Ruger?

    Still Unknown.

    Chev. William
    So far no luck with EDM shops; one did not answer The phone and the second was too busy to take on the project but did giv eme a referral to another shop which might, i still have not made contact with this third shop.

    Also, some Progress and some setbacks on making Trim tooling for the reformed cases. I need to find and purchase Carbide Replaceable Tip Cutoff tool to fit my friends Shop Lathe as HSS tool is machined by my Drill Blank partially Completed mandrel. Drill Blank was chosen for longevity of the finished custom mandrels.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-17-2018 at 12:16 PM.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    This is my minor contribution to the thread, a photo of the .22 Ladybug Repeater, with a .22 LR. The LBR is almost, but not quite identical to the 221 Askins, though arrived at differently and with very different intentions...

    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

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  7. #47
    Boolit Bub cas's Avatar
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    I opened this thread fully expecting to see this photo. lol




    Not mine of course.

    Though I do own a Long Snapper.

    Former cylindersmith.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by cas View Post
    I opened this thread fully expecting to see this photo. lol




    Not mine of course.

    Though I do own a Long Snapper.

    I've got some long snapper dies, and if I could find a reamer to borrow or rent, I'd probably have a long snapper revolver... But I digress...
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

    I collect all things .32. If you have something you don't need, please let me know!

  9. #49
    Boolit Bub cas's Avatar
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    Dave Clements did mine many years ago, but as I recall he'd borrowed it himself. I know the owners name, but have no contact info.
    Former cylindersmith.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    Cas,
    Your photo of the .22 Long bottle neck made from .25ACP case is a very interesting solution to reloadable .22 question. necking down the case to grip the ~.22" diameter Bullet is viable and is done enough so Pacific Tool and Gauge does list chamber reamers available for several version of necked down pistol cases to .22".

    The photo of the 'Snapper' standing beside a .22 Hornet looks like it is a hornet case shortened and necked to giv ea stronger .22 Cartridge by getting lower on the case to form a slightly thicker , and more robust, neck and shoulder. Is this what the ".22 Long Snapper" is derived from/for?

    For others interested, you might contact PT&G about the dimension involved.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-17-2018 at 12:33 PM.

  11. #51
    Boolit Bub cas's Avatar
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    Yes the Long Snapper is a 22 Hornet case. There is also a "standard" short version of the Snapper, though I've never seen one and have only run into on person who has in person. I think the Long is more "common", if you can even use that word.

    I know zero about the .22-25ACP other than that the .17-25ACP may be more 'common".
    Former cylindersmith.

  12. #52
    Boolit Man
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    Another solution could be .22 hornet converted to 5.45x18 and instead of 5.45 then use a standard .22 bullet

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    Ammoguide Interactive lists the .22 Epperson Cricket/.22 Pokey as a .222 bullet in a necked down .25ACP case.
    The only major difference is neck length.
    "The most famous user of this caliber would be Dr. Paul Kopsch who loaded this caliber with his KTW bullets for his wife who had a custom pistol in .22 Pokey caliber." --Ammoguide Interactive in write-up for .22 Cricket.

    Chev. William

  14. #54
    Boolit Bub cas's Avatar
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    That's a .22 Pokey above. Don't know how I forgot that... since it's the photo file name. lmao
    Former cylindersmith.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    You would think that gun companies would jump on a reloadable 22cf dupe for 22rf. The tooling that
    would be required would be small. Revolvers from S&W and Ruger would only have to have cylinders
    reamed for new CF case. Getting a company to draw brass would be a bigger problem.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    Sarcastically Posted:
    What? Impact/Endanger their .22LR Tooling Investments?

    Laughing!!!!

    Now then, I think it would be slightly Less Expensive To test and develop .25ACP "Rifle" cartridge Loadings. Making a test Barrel 24 inches long to fit the "Universal Test Receiver should not be overly expensive when most other Calibers test with that length barrel.

    It is Quite feasible to develop the .25ACP to work effectively in longer Barrels. after all the .22 Short, .22Long, and .22 Long Rifle 'work' in that environment ad the case length of the .22 Long rifle and the .25ACP are comparable.

    The original reason John browning developed the cartridge was to better the Feed from columnar Magazines which was poor for the .22LR at the time.

    Chev. William

  17. #57
    Boolit Bub cas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
    Revolvers from S&W and Ruger would only have to have cylinders
    reamed for new CF case.
    Mmmm.. are you talking new production guns? Then sure. Otherwise you're looking at rimfire to centerfire conversions, and that costs. I can't see that taking off as a factory item. Your market would be very small, for handloaders (because what non handloader is going to buy expensive ammo that duplicates cheap ammo?) and even then, only handloaders that like oddball stuff.
    Your only hope for guns would be a limited run from someone like Lipsey's, and I sure don't see Ruger going anywhere near a non SAAMI cartridge.
    Former cylindersmith.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    "Standard cartridge" includes the .25ACP/6,35 Browning; which is currently factory Optimized in a 6 inch test Barrel.

    Ruger Might Be interested in a limited run of 8 shot Single Action in the small 'Single Six' frame, or perhaps a 10 shot in the Larger 'Blackhawk' Frame.

    Obviously i would prefer cylinders with 'enclosed Rims and of long cylinder length to allow "wildcatting to fit CF .25 Stevens equivalent, the .25ALS/6,35x28.6mmSR of 1.125" case length and Up to 1.4" in a "Single Six", or about 1.6" in a "Blackhawk".

    But this may be getting somewhat far afield for a ".221 Askins" Thread.

    As to the 'Askins'; I find that the .25ACP is relatively easy to swage down to about .250" body and web diameter, and it results in a case that is about the correct length as formed to make the 'Askins' Cartridge with Inside lube bullets of about .222"-.224" diameter.
    Of course the Rim is starting out 'thin' compared to what Col. Askins had to start with in the 5,5 Velodog case; so the chambering is closer, and easier to modify, to .22LR than the 'velodog' derived case was.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 11-02-2018 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Correct Punctuation and typos, added clarifications

  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    The Recently purchased Ruger MKII Pistol looks like it will get converted to .25ACP sooner rather than later as John Taylor of Taylor machine gave me an estimate that is within my Budget range to machine and fit the barrel.

    John also offered to look at the bolt and give me an estimate in converting it to CF and the Larger rime diameter of the .25ACP case.

    I still have my older "pre-MKI" Ruger Pistol that I can test the CF .22 Ladybug-Repeater cartridge in. It is currently fitted with a roughly 6" "Bull Target Barrel" and adjustable rear sight. This is the Pistol I formerly had used in my Military reserve Training with Grade 7 PTL Blanks and a Blank Firing Adapter; that was designed to stop any slug or debris from exiting to the front.

    The front of the BFA had a circle of 6 roughly .110 diameter holes on a !/2 diameter circle through about 1/2 inch section of Alloy Steel with a space about 1/2 inch long between muzzle of barrel and rear face of the drilled Alloy Steel front face when installed on the about 4-1/2" original pistol barrel.

    I did fire one .22LR round into the BFA as a 'Proof Test'; which was captured without any damage to barrel or BFA, but did have a 'distinctive sound' so I knew the design was good enough to prevent 'repeat accidental discharges' with some safety margin.

    Chev. William

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
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    I would think a Flat Face seating punch that is about the same diameter as the Primer would work to seat it in a .22LR case.
    Further, i think it might be 'prudent' to add a short piece of Thick walled tubing to the stack to support the anvil for firing the Primer later.
    The bore of the thick wall tube would act as a 'flash hole' of a normal CF cartridge case.

    Chev. William

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check