First shootiing with a 1898 Krag

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have recently come into a Krag. It must have been a rifle when issued way back when - now it has been righteously cut down to carbine length, complete with a saddle-ring from somewhere. The whole outfit has been refinished with a fairly attractive 'brown' color. This looks OK but seems to have reduced the 'slickness' of the typical Krag action to some extent.

The sights are issue, the front blade being transferred nicely to the shorted barrel from the original rifle. The trigger is kind of like squeezing a ripe plumb - no let off - creeps all the way until the rifle eventually goes off.

Anyway, the bore is bright. The throat is washed out somewhat but well within working limits. I measured the bore, finding it to be 0.307 in the grooves and a 0.300 bore.

My loads are with a perfectly suitable LEE C309-200-R that casts 0.310 on the body and 0.2995 on the noses: 180 rounds have been loaded and fired - no satisfactory results have been attained. The groups sometimes show nice 4 or five fairly close but always there are rather striking flyers that spoil any hope for real, reliable accuracy.

Here I'm looking for any help about Krag triggers, loads and/or bedding techniques.

Thanks for any assistance; Forrest

[Char-Gar]

There is not enough information to even begin to offer assistance. You made no mention, of the bullet alloy, lube, powder or charge or brass handling. You unacceptable result might very well be found here. It is too soon to blame the rifle.

Krag triggers have a long and creeply pull. But you should be able to feel when the sear is turned loose. Good work can be done with these trigger, but it takes some discipline. Huebner Concepts makes a good after market trigger.

Krag actions are held in the stock by the two very close screws, which leave the barrel somewhat on it's own. The barrel band is what hold it down. Most Krags do well in the issue stock, as long as somebody has not jacked with the bedding.

I have bedded a few Krag stocks and they have their peculiarities. The rear end of the magazine is what serves as a recoil lug and therefore the rear end of the magazine should be in firm contact with the wood. I use glas to bed the rear action screw and the rear bearing surface where the magazine contacts. I also bed the bottom of the magazine. A little glas at the point where the chamber lays in the stock is also a good idea.

Some pics of the rifle and the stock would be very helpful.

I feel compelled to say that your internal barrel measurements are most certainly wrong. Krag barrel groove diameters run anywhere from .308 to .314 with the most common being .3095. I don't believe there every was a .307 groove diameter, which makes me think you didn't not clean the century of metal fouling out of the barrel first.

Most Krag barrels come with layers of metal fouling in them. You must clean this fouling out as close to bare metal as possible. You will never find cast bullet happiness in the Krag rifle until you do. This fouling acts like files striping alloy from the bullet as it goes down the barrel. Get some Wipe-Out foam cleaner and follow the directions, until your patches no longer come out green or blue.

Krag throats are quite large and most Krags do better with .312 bullets than anything smaller. I prefer .313 or .314 in my Krags. On, one of them I have to neck turn the brass to allow bullets that large to chamber with a smidge of room left for the case to expand and turn the bullet loose. My three Krags with issue barrels run .308, .3095 and .312 in the grooves. .313 - .314 bullets do well in all of them. I find that 2 - 2.5 MOA accuracy is fairly easy to do with cast bullets in Krag rifles.

That is all I can do now, with the information I have.

[FAsmus]

Char:

You say: There is not enough information to even begin to offer assistance. You made no mention, of the bullet alloy, lube, powder or charge or brass handling. Your unacceptable result might very well be found here. It is too soon to blame the rifle.

Me: Multiple loads have been tried: RCBS 30-165-SIL, SAECO 315, LEE C309-200-R over things like 20 & 21 gr 4759, 27 gr Varget, 28.5 gr Varget, 28 gr 4895 and 10 gr Unique. The RCBS & SAECO were air-cooled the LEE quench hardened. All sized @ 0.3105. White Label BAC lube. Alloy is conventional (old) WW + 2% tin + a bit of antimony.

Brass is sorted by head-stamp from a large bag of mixed R-P, Peters and Winchester.

C: Krag triggers have a long and creeply pull. But you should be able to feel when the sear is turned loose. Good work can be done with these triggers, but it takes some discipline. Huebner Concepts makes a good after market trigger.

F: I'll go look for that after-market trigger. ~ Sure I can tell when the sear is released: The rifle fires!

C: Krag actions are held in the stock by the two very close screws, which leave the barrel somewhat on it's own. The barrel band is what holds it down. Most Krags do well in the issue stock, as long as somebody has not jacked with the bedding.

I have bedded a few Krag stocks and they have their peculiarities. The rear end of the magazine is what serves as a recoil lug and therefore the rear end of the magazine should be in firm contact with the wood. I use glass to bed the rear action screw and the rear bearing surface where the magazine contacts. I also bed the bottom of the magazine. A little acraglass at the point where the chamber lays in the stock is also a good idea.

F: Thanks especially for this information: I'll go take a look and post the results back.

C: I feel compelled to say that your internal barrel measurements are most certainly wrong. Krag barrel groove diameters run anywhere from 0.308 to 0.314 with the most common being 0.3095. I don't believe there ever was a 0.307 groove diameter, which makes me think you didn't not clean the century of metal fouling out of the barrel first.


F: I carefully measured the bore at first. You just may be right about the ID since I recently picked up intact spent bullets, measured them and found the groove diameter at 0.3080. Really though, that isn't much since I size the basic as-cast bullets to 0.310 anyway.

C: Most Krag barrels come with layers of metal fouling in them. You must clean this fouling out as close to bare metal as possible. You will never find cast bullet happiness in the Krag rifle until you do. This fouling acts like files striping alloy from the bullet as it goes down the barrel. Get some Wipe-Out foam cleaner and follow the directions, until your patches no longer come out green or blue.

F: The spent bullets were acquired after over 100 cast bullets were fired. I know that this is plenty to clean out any old metal fouling. In any case accuracy continued unchanged even with a super-clean bore thereafter.

C: Krag throats are quite large and most Krags do better with .312 bullets than anything smaller. I prefer .313 or .314 in my Krags. On, one of them I have to neck turn the brass to allow bullets that large to chamber with a smidge of room left for the case to expand and turn the bullet loose. My three Krags with issue barrels run .308, .3095 and .312 in the grooves. .313 - .314 bullets do well in all of them. I find that 2 - 2.5 MOA accuracy is fairly easy to do with cast bullets in Krag rifles.

F: I have loaded and fired oversize bullets suitable to fit overly large throats. I know this sometimes works in the single-shot game but seldom with bottle-necked cases.

Good afternoon, - F

[cainttype]

Alternating Wipe-Out Foam overnight (or all day if I'm busy) with multiple passes of Bore-Tech Eliminator, when I'm able, has worked extremely well at removing serious copper and cupronickel fouling from barrels that had been thought useless... The Wipe-Out Accelerator is very useful for speeding up the cycles if you happen to be around the workshop and have the time.
I wouldn't expect any number of cast rounds fired to remove the type of fouling I'm referring too, but I can't honestly say that I've ever tried... and will continue doing what works well for me. YMMV

Shiny doesn't always mean fouling-free. It's possible to layer fouling from different metals, and that can complicate things a little, especially with these older rifles.
A good scrubbing and checking with effective cleaners wouldn't hurt anything, so that would be my first step... mainly because it's the easiest thing to do! lol
Good luck.

[Scharfschuetze]

Congrats on your recent acquisition! Krags are indeed a fun breed of rifle and almost perfect for cast boolit shooting.

My Krag has a pretty nice bore, albeit a bit oversize at .310." This may or may not pertain to yours as Krag dimensions seem to be all over the map; but I've found boolits sized to .313" with a .301-.302" nose to shoot well in mine.

My best loads use the Lyman 314299 projectile sized at the above .313" diameter. Surprisingly, this is the only rifle that I have where 5744 powder out performs SR 4759. I don't know why, but the difference in groups and consistency over the chronograph is striking.

Any boolit designed and sized for the 32/20 also shoots well in mine for plinking loads using Bullseye or Unique powder.

As for your trigger: the Krag trigger is what is commonly called a double stage trigger and has an initial take up of a few pounds. It should then tighten up and break cleanly at about four to five pounds on the second stage. This was the first double stage trigger used (in general issue rifles anyway) by the US Military. The following 1903, M1 Garand and M14 rifles all continued to use this very good system. The initial few pounds of pull reduces the pull necessary for the final stage which should break cleanly.

My Krag on a good day is about a 2 1/2 MOA rifle with my aging eyes. Here are the 314299 projectiles with a neck sized 30/40 case. 1,800 fps seems to be a sweet spot for uniformity and accuracy using this projectile in my Krag.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You've obviously been doing some research! I have a number of Krags and they're all individuals. I've got one that loves a 165 gr. cast lead spitzer with gas checks, and most of mine (not all) seem to be happy with boolits in the 180 gr. range. Again, mine don't all like the same powder, but IMR-4895 seems to get their majority vote. So what I'm saying is that maybe your particular rifle doesn't like the 200 gr. boolit. A couple of them shoot nice groups at 50 yds., and most of them I'd take deer hunting at 100 yds.; but realistically, none of them much past that distance with cast loads. I'd really like to see a couple of photos of your rifle if possible. Are you certain that it's a cutdown and not an original carbine? That can be pretty well determined from the serial number. Wouldn't want to do a bedding job on a rare collector item when there are so many cutdowns floating around to play with. Best wishes on solving your problem. About all you can do is keep experimenting until you hit the magic combination.

[Scharfschuetze]

Are you certain that it's a cutdown and not an original carbine?

Good point Gebirgsjager (Mountain Rifleman or Hunter). As I recall, there was an NRA carbine that was a modified rifle and I'm sure that Bannerman of New York probably professionally cut down more than a few rifles to carbine status.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yes Sir, Sharpshooter, the ones that the NRA sold were cut down by the government at the Benecia Arsenal in Calif. for civilian sale. Although not as valuable monetarily as an original carbine they are worth more than a basement sporter job, and are a recognized variation. The Bannerman rifles are great curiosities and likely a mixture of parts of Krags, M-1903, and 1917s. The fact that Forrest's has a saddle ring and a brown finish is interesting, and we need some photos!
DG

[tdoyka]

i would use gunslick foaming bore cleaner, then shooter's choice, then sweets 7.62, then gunslick, then shooters, then sweets, then gunslicks.... around day 3 i thought it was clean and then i put my lead slug down the barrel. there was black gunk and copper and God knows what else. it took another 2 or 3 days till it was spotless. mine is .3085".

since i hunt, mine is a bubba carbine(21 3/4" barrel)with a 1950-60's bishop's stock, i only ever tried one load with a bunch of different powders. mine is a 165gr ranch dog(.311") with 25.5gr of h4198. i've tried a bunch of loads, varget being the best(gives more recoil, hey, i'm stroke-abled!!!) and rel7.

i don't know about after market triggers. but its like Scharfschuetze says, "a double stage trigger and has an initial take up of a few pounds. It should then tighten up and break cleanly at about four to five pounds on the second stage"

heres a few for you


i think i lost the h4198, stupid 'puter!!!

[Wolfer]

When I got my Krag I didn't slug it before shooting. I just loaded up some 311041's sized at as cast .309 with 16 gr of 2400
How accurate it is I don't know. What I do know is that it will put a boolit where the top of the bead is out past 100 yds.

Last year I bumped the powder up to 17 gr and killed one deer with it. I could probably go higher but it's very pleasnt to shoot as is and seems to be good enough for what I use it for.

I have no idea what the issue is with yours.

[Char-Gar]

Jacketed bullet fouling cannot be shot out with any number of rounds either cast or more jacketed. It can only be removed with the right chemicals and elbow grease.

[frnkeore]

Yes Sir, Sharpshooter, the ones that the NRA sold were cut down by the government at the Benecia Arsenal in Calif. for civilian sale. Although not as valuable monetarily as an original carbine they are worth more than a basement sporter job, and are a recognized variation. The Bannerman rifles are great curiosities and likely a mixture of parts of Krags, M-1903, and 1917s.
DG

I have a well sportized 1898 (by serial #) Krag. It has a 26" barrel, nice finish and a filled ram rod hole.

How is the NRA sporter identified, as well as the Bannerman.

Mines .300 x .310 groove. It has a Redfield "no drill" sight. A 311413 (.311 dia) will shoot 1.5", 5 shot groups @ 100 with 18.5 gr 4759, using a V target.

I also agree with using a amonia bore cleaner, to be sure that there is no copper and crude left in the bore.

Frank

[leadman]

The issue cartridges for the Krag contained cupro-nickel jacketed bullets. This is a difficult fouling to remove, shooting won't do it.
I plug the breech with a rubber plug and fill the bore with Hoppe's #9 and let it set overnight. Then drain it and clean it. I like to run some 600 grit lapping compound on a tight patch as this will let you know where the fouling is and it helps clean it out. JB Bore Paste will do this also just finer grit so it takes longer.
I have found for old mil-surp rifles that hard boolits around 18bhn and harder shoot better for me.
When the bore is clean slug just the throat and size the boolit to this dimension or plus .001". Also check the crown as it could be worn or nicked.

[cainttype]

I was gifted an '03 a few years back that was very pretty. The stock had been replaced with an attractive piece of well-fitted wood, and the external metalwork was excellent. The bore, however, looked like a sewer pipe, and the owner was convinced it was ruined.. I had access to new/unfired barrels, so the stocked action was very much appreciated.
As a general practice, I decided to clean the barrel as best I could before any other steps were taken.
Alternating soaks and scrubs while working, it was almost 2 full weeks before a clean patch ever emerged. I avoided really aggressive solutions because I had other things going, so a few pass-throughs with a brush, a few more patches, then another soak was convenient... Lots of scrubbing and elbow-grease later, it turned out that the barrel's internals were as good as the rest of the rifle.

Shooting cast before cleaning would have only added another layer of fouling to the many that were already there.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

frnkeore--I don't see a question mark, so don't know if you are asking how to identify them or making a statement? For all I know, you know more about it than I do. But in case you are asking--the NRA carbines are covered pretty extensively in Brophy's book "The Krag Rifle", with photos and text. Just a generalization, they were cut down from full length rifles, often unissued late production guns made in and after 1899. In general they look very much like an issue carbine, but do not have the saddle ring of earlier carbine models and the forend is shaped a little differently where it was cut off. The original carbines never had sling swivels, which was the purpose of the saddle ring, and that included the last model carbine made in 1899 which had neither the ring or swivels. The NRA carbines utilized the full length rifle's middle band with swivel as the barrel band, and since the donor rifle already had a rear swivel the NRA version had swivels. As for the Bannermans, they also receive some coverage in Brophy's book, and have been covered in several gun magazine articles with some photos including in Guns Magazine, October 2012, pg. 30, "The Rare and Remarkable Bannermans" by Holt Bodinson. There are others as well. It's hard to really nail down an exact description of Bannerman's rifles because, although they originally advertised specific models that had a certain appearance, like for example, a Krag carbine, they freely altered them with parts available as they ran out of other parts. There are rifles that are 90% Krag and those that are 10% Krag having only a Krag rear sight! They can be found with Mauser parts, 1917 Enfield parts, and 1903 Springfield parts, and many don't look exactly like any other specimen.
They aren't worth much money as gun collecting goes, but there is such a variety of them that a very interesting collection could be assembled. Gary James did a short article on them in The American Rifleman, September 2012, pg. 112. It must have been a gunsmith's dream to work at Bannerman's in the middle of huge piles of diverse parts and having the boss say, "Make us some rifles to sell." Or--maybe a nightmare.

[tdoyka]

Jacketed bullet fouling cannot be shot out with any number of rounds either cast or more jacketed. It can only be removed with the right chemicals and elbow grease.

that sir, should be put in along side of cast boolits logo!!!
i need a few more elbows and grease too!!!

[Char-Gar]

that sir, should be put in along side of cast boolits logo!!!
i need a few more elbows and grease too!!!

I am more than a little dumbfounded that anybody would thinks that cast bullets would remove jacket fouling from a barrel. The metal fouling is much harder than any lead alloy and heat and pressure welded to the inside of the barrel. I am equally dumbfounded that anybody would think looking at recovered fired cast bullets would in anyway indicate the amount of metal fouling in the barrel.

I am all in favor of creative thinking, but only if it works.

The old Krag barrels most often contain generations of alternating layers of jacket metal and powder fouling. Remove one layer of jacket metal and you will find a new layer of powder fouling. Remove the powder fouling and you will find another layer of jacket metal. It may seem like an endless task, but it is not. The new foaming cleaners will dramatically cut the cleaning time down to bare steel. Krags are a particular problems as the layers of jacket metal may very well be both gliding metal and cupro-nickle.

A bright bore may indicate the absence of micro-pits, but tells nothing about the layers of jacket metal fouling.

I bought my first Krag in 1960 and never had good results with cast bullet until 1984 or so when I discovered Sweets 7.62. After three weekends of applying Sweets, I finally plugged the breech with a hardwood down, filled the barrel with Sweets and let it sit for a month in my garage. That did the trick.

Jacket metal in the pores of the steel won't harm the accuracy, but jacket metal on top of the grooves certainly will. It is quite easy to determine when the metal from on top of the steel is gone as from there on out, there will only be traces of color on the patches. You can stop then.

[FAsmus]

Char:


you say: I am more than a little dumbfounded that anybody would thinks that cast bullets would remove jacket fouling from a barrel. The metal fouling is much harder than any lead alloy and heat and pressure welded to the inside of the barrel.


I say: Well, I have repeatedly found that shooting hard lead bullets will completely remove jacketed fouling of any type at all unless the bore is badly pitted or otherwise damaged.



C: I am equally dumbfounded that anybody would think looking at recovered fired cast bullets would in anyway indicate the amount of metal fouling in the barrel.


F-prior: “You just may be right about the ID since I recently picked up intact spent bullets, measured them and found the groove diameter at 0.3080”


F-now; Please note that I did not mention the fouling question at all in that paragraph. The point was bore size!

C: I am all in favor of creative thinking, but only if it works.

The old Krag barrels most often contain generations of alternating layers of jacket metal and powder fouling. Remove one layer of jacket metal and you will find a new layer of powder fouling. Remove the powder fouling and you will find another layer of jacket metal. It may seem like an endless task, but it is not. The new foaming cleaners will dramatically cut the cleaning time down to bare steel. Krags are a particular problems as the layers of jacket metal may very well be both gliding metal and cupro-nickle.

A bright bore may indicate the absence of micro-pits, but tells nothing about the layers of jacket metal fouling.


F: I have re-cleaned this barrel today. The dry patches passed through the scrubbed bore, left to 'season' for 10 hours, sopping wet with solvent came out sightly 'smoked' as we have all seen in cast bullet shooting. There was no trace of the green stains associated with jacketed fouling what-so-ever.

C: I bought my first Krag in 1960 and never had good results with cast bullet until 1984 or so when I discovered Sweets 7.62. After three weekends of applying Sweets, I finally plugged the breech with a hardwood dowel, filled the barrel with Sweets and let it sit for a month in my garage. That did the trick.

Jacket metal in the pores of the steel won't harm the accuracy, but jacket metal on top of the grooves certainly will. It is quite easy to determine when the metal from on top of the steel is gone as from there on out, there will only be traces of color on the patches. You can stop then.


F: So! It appears that the jacketed fouling demon is not present after all!


Char:

[frnkeore]

Der Gebirgsjager,
Thank you very much. I know very little about Krags but, I like mine, a lot. It's very professionally done so, I've always wondered about it.

I tried to send a picture in a PM so I don't interfere with the thread but, it won't let me attach anything so, I'll post the pictures here. Does it look like anything you've seen before?

Thank you,

Frank


Frank

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi Frank--
I would say that your description of your rifle being a very nicely done sporter is accurate. I like it. It appears that the barrel may be uncut (it would be 30 inches in length if still original) and has the original front sight. It also has a nice receiver peep sight which appears to be one of the "no gunsmithing" models that were made by Lyman-Ideal, Redfield, etc. that attached by removing the magazine cartridge cut-off lever and which was secured in the cut-off hole with a hook-like piece of metal, and at the side plate with a longer screw. These sights are in big demand as no one makes them anymore and often go for near $100 on e-bay. I've restored a couple of these that still had the 30 inch barrel by "stretching" the forestock. This involves cutting it off beneath the front band and gluing and dowelling on a replacement piece of walnut. If properly done the repair is almost invisible anyway, but is hidden beneath the band. Then, all you need is an actual front band with the bayonet lug and stacking swivel, issue rear sight on the barrel, hand guard and you're pretty much done. NOT that I'm suggesting you do it---just for the sake of conversation about your rifle. It certainly has nice lines the way it is, and I'll bet it's a great hunting rifle. I have several quite similar to yours and favor the "Twilight Aperture" on the sight. I get them from Brownell's, and the gold ring around the aperture is a big plus. Yours has a nice Schnabel, probably the work of one of the older time gunsmiths. I have several with pieced in pistol grips, and the different approaches and levels of workmanship is interesting, but I prefer the classic straight wrist (original) stock like yours has. All said, you have a nice looking rifle. By the way, I've never had any luck attaching photos to PMs either.
DG