.45 ACP to .44 Special-Special

[454PB]

On another thread, there was discussion about a .45 Special. I posted about reforming .45 ACP brass to fit/fire in a .44 Special or .44 Magnum. I rooted around in my "treasures" and found the equipment I used to make them.

I'll state up front this was not my idea or creation, I read about it many years ago in (I believe) Handloader magazine. I also believe the author/inventor was a guy named Russ Gaertner.

The idea was to utilize .45 ACP brass (which was very abundant back 30 years ago) to form a sort of .44 Special-Special. It's actually a shorter version of the .44 Special, and can push a 220 grain boolit to over 1100 fps. in a gun of sufficient strength.

I don't normally shoot shorter brass in my revolver chambers.....38 Special in .357 Magnum, .44 Special in .44 Magnum, or .45 Colt in .454 Casull. In limited quantities, it's probably harmless, but prolonged and extensive use will eventually cause problems by eroding the chamber area right behind the cylinder throat. However, I have done some, and there may be a time when brass of any kind will has to be utilized to keep shooting.

This specialized ammo will work well in any single action, but if fired in a double action, the empty cases may have to be pushed out with a dowel. The case rim is too small for the ejector ring to catch the edges, at least in my Taurus .44 Special. I haven't checked other brands of revolver. I was originally using these in a Ruger SBH.

Here are the steps for forming:
Size the .45 ACP in a .45 ACP die. Fired, unsized brass may not fit in a .44 Special/magnum sizing die.

No shell holder is used. Place a flat piece of metal on top of the ram to protect it. Place the lubed .45 brass on the metal, and push it all the way into the .44 die until the case rim meets the die mouth.

Now comes the fun part, getting that well swaged case out of the die. Russ used the hammer and punch method. It works, but is noisy and hard on loading benches. With some home machining, an ejection mechanism could be made. Here's what I do:

Remove the die and turn it over, then screw it into the bottom of the press from underneath. You'll need the lock ring removed for this. I then insert a 3/8" rod (a bolt with the head cut off or a piece of all thread) into the bottom of the die, and raise the covered ram. It will push the finished round out of the die. I use two rod lengths to attain proper leverage.

Once they are formed, they can be loaded and reloaded using normal methods and an RCBS #3 shellholder. Crimping the seated boolit requires shortening of a .44 Special seating die.

Here's a picture of the loaded 44 Special-Special on the left, .44 Special center, and .44 Magnum on the right.

[RP]

how did you go about working up a safe load for your special special

[Ricochet]

That's a little shorter than a .44 Russian.

[S.R.Custom]

Ed,

Since you are in possession of bullets, assembled cartridges, a SBH, and a caliper, let me throw a question at you: When that 220 grain bullet is fired, does the front driving band contact the chamber throat before the tail end of the bullet leaves the case?

(I question the efficacy of such a cartridge in the .44M if the burning powder charge is free to whistle around the bullet during its jump from case to throat.) Although it looks like it should work delightfully in a .44 Special chamber.

[454PB]

Sorry it took so long to respond to these posts.

I don't recall any of the load data I used for these, but as a starting point, I think you could safley use data for .45 ACP hardball and 220 grain cast boolits. Yes, the case capacity is slightly reduced, but any .44 magnum would handle the increased pressure easily. If you used them in .44 Special, you would need to reduce the charge accordingly.

I will have to do some measuring, Supermag. I don't own a SBH anymore, but do own several other .44 magnum revolvers. I fell in love with a 6" model 29 S&W at a gunshow in Missoula many years ago, and traded my old model SBH straight across for the Smith. One of those gun deals you wish you could undo.

You make a good point. All I can say without the measuring completed is that the loads I used were very accurate, and there was no evidence of gas cutting or leading. I was using the 215 grain Lyman 429215 gas checked boolit, as seen in the picture. Gas checks were less than a penny a piece back then.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

Have you tried it in a Lever Action Rifle?

It may make a great target load.

Low Kick & Low Cost.

What kind of Reloading equipment would I need to make them?

Recipies?

[Swagerman]

Ed, it resembles my .44 APC cartridge, which was a .308 rifle brass cut to .937 OAL and reamed and chamfered.

I still have a patent on it, so watch it feller... But in all honesty I think the patent has run out by now, they are only good for about 15 years.

It would make a pretty good rifle cartridge as well, was getting 1,500 fps in my Randall .45 acp clone with its .44 apc proto-type barrel. The barrel was a Dan Wesson .44 caliber sleave fitted in a bored out Colt .45 acp barrel.

Still have lots of ammo and the barrel and recoil springs.

Jim

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ed, You were swaging the solid head portion of the case down .019"( .476"-.457"). That must be some heck of a reloading press. I turned dies to swage .348Win cases down about that amount, to make 10.4 Vetterli brass, and have to do it in two stages, in an arbor press.

Jim, What weight bullets are you using in this round? It sounds superior to my 10mm and .45 Super that I built by using Delta springs in my .45acp. I'm using Starline brass with thick webs.
Morgan

[Lloyd Smale]

why not cut the top off a carbide sizing die and then use one of those lee sizing die set punches to push them right threw the top base first.

[45 2.1]

why not cut the top off a carbide sizing die and then use one of those lee sizing die set punches to push them right threw the top base first.

Its needs a rim to headspace (sort of) to. You do that and it won't have one.

[454PB]

Yes, it needs that rim, so a push through wouldn't work.

Morgan: I'm use an RCBS Rockchucker to form them, but my Lee Classic Turret has enough power too. Pushing them in is relatively easy, getting them out is a little more work.

Jim, I admitted up front that I stole this idea, so you'll have to go after somebody else!

I've never tried these in a rifle, so I can't say how they would work.

NEWENGLANDCHARTERS: You need a .44 sizing die, either special or magnum, I use an old steel (non carbide) .44 Special sizing die and boot waterproofing (Smiling Mink) as a case lube. Imperial Sizing Die Wax also works, but costs 10 times as much as the boot waterproofing. The sizing die needs no modification, but the crimping die has to be shortened to reach the case mouth. I used a grinder to shorten mine, but a carbide bit in a lathe would do it too. Also, flaring the case mouth requires either a shortened neck expander, or you have to remove the decapping pin in order to reach the case mouth. My neck expander hit the inside of the case head before it flares the mouth, so I have to removed the decaping pin and the securing nut. OR....you could use a Lee universal case expander.

Supermag:
I did some measuring yesterday. The formed case lengthens a little, and is .909" long. a .44 special case is 1.160" long, a .44 Magnum case is 1.285" long. I use the Lyman 429215 boolit, and it has a bearing length of .384". With a little math, I come up with about .133" of bore diameter boolit between the case mouth and cylinder throat upon firing in a .44 Special, and only .008" in a .44 Magnum. Again, I saw no problems with that in my old SBH, but can't recommend it to others.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ed, Could it be you weren't swaging down the solid base portion of the case? Is the solid base below the extractor groove on the .45acp? Might be so, because they had to thicken the base and web for the .45 Super, to support it over the ramp.
I couldn't do it (swage the solid base and web) in either my RCBS A-2, or my Pacific SuperPro, which is even stronger. Either of these presses will easily form a .243Win. out of .30-06 with light pressure, without annealing, the resulting long collapsed necks and wrinkled shoulders not withstanding. I've used them both for bullet swaging, the RCBS back when you could get all the spent copper .22 short cases you wanted, for a buck or two a 5 gal pail, at the shooting galleries in Coney Island.
But I've only worked with rimmed cases, which had to be swaged down to the rim.
Also, regarding carbide dies, for you fellows contemplating using them, the carbide rings, especially on sizing dies made for larger diameter cases, cannot take too much strain, carbide being very brittle. The steel will expand, the carbide won't. I've broken carbide dies in my 5 ton arbor press, trying to use them for swaging brass, and they were screwed into a 7/8-14 hole drilled and tapped in a 1" thick steel plate.
Morgan

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i wasnt thinking there. but theres got to be a faster way to do this or its hardly worth while. What about if a guy cut off a die and turned it upside down and tapped the cases into the die with something like a the lead hammer thats made here and ejected them with one of the lee push through punchs. Im seriously thinking an old model ruger chambered in 44 russian and fed like this would be pretty neat.

[lathesmith]

Thanks for the post, 454. Looks like another interesting lathe project to me! I've got a bunch of 45acp brass, and a Ruger SBH. I think I'll try and make a couple of sizing dies, and try and squeeze that brass down in a couple of steps. You might be able to use a shellholder this way, and with the turret press you could form brass fairly quickly.
lathesmith

[AKtinman]

On another thread, there was discussion about a .45 Special. I posted about reforming .45 ACP brass to fit/fire in a .44 Special or .44 Magnum. I rooted around in my "treasures" and found the equipment I used to make them.

I'll state up front this was not my idea or creation, I read about it many years ago in (I believe) Handloader magazine. I also believe the author/inventor was a guy named Russ Gaertner.

Say, I remember that article. I was in Kodiak at that time, and it would have been around 1978-79. I just had to try it out, and promptly busted the carbide ring in my RCBS .44 sizer die! Bought a new set of dies and later had the old one repaired.

Neat idea, though.

Regards

Ron

[joatmon]

Could mount the press on the shop hydrolic press, use an adapter to pump out the case from the top after forming.

[454PB]

Lloyd is right, it's a lot of work doing it the way I did. However, it only has to be done once. As I recall, I made up 150 of the cases and it took me about an hour. Jim (Swagerman) built a linked ejector (not his spring loaded one he recently posted) for bullet swaging that ulilized the down stoke of the press ram to remove the formed swaged bullet. That might work, although it takes a lot of push. Joatmon has the right idea if you were doing this in volume.

Morgan, it definately sizes the case head. Give it a try and you'll see what I mean.

Lathesmith, just remember you have to push the case into the die all the way to the rim on the .45 ACP case. The flange on a shellholder prevents that.

Ron, that's about the right time frame. I have every handloader magazine since 1973, but I'm not willing to dig through them to find the article. Yes, a carbide die won't work, the carbide is too brittle and the ring would break (as you discovered).

[Morgan Astorbilt]

45PB, I miked the base height of several .45acp cases, and the center, is at or a few tousanths below the top of the extracter groove. This will allow the base to curl up slightly, as the case is swaged. This, along with the reduced diameter, will add to case length.

Anybody that wonders why I thought this couldn't be done, just try to swage any solid head rimmed case down to the rim. A good example, would be to force a .45-70 case(.505" base dia.) into a 31/64"(.4834") hole drilled in a steel plate. The plate(or washer), could be slipped over the case, and the case placed in the press, where a steel electical box KO slug has been placed on the ram in place of the shell holder, and the ram brought up, the washer being stopped by the top of the press frame, as the case moves up. The spot where the solid head begins, will become very apparent, when the case stops its upward movement. I mention this, as one method(using a shell holder), to reduce case walls before fire forming, if you don't have a lathe, or the proper dies). You just can't swage the solid portion of a case this way.
Morgan

[EDK]

IIRC there was an article about this in SHOOTING TIMES about the time the CHARTER 44 BULL DOG was brought out. The author discussed using the hybrid brass in his little cannon in some detail.

This was back in the good old days of non-available model 29 S&Ws and wanna-be Dirty Harry types paying $500+ for them. One of the local pawn shops charged $1 just to fondle the model 29 on display..."POR"

PISTOLS, A MODERN ENCYCLOPEDIA by Harry Stebbins showed a rig to full length size casings that eliminated the shell holder so you could size as low as possible. I made one at work and used a spring loaded ejector rod...drill holes in a couple of flat strips, use some heavy duty threaded rod and some jury rigging to a ground down shell holder. D--- if I can remember what I needed it for, but it worked!

[Morgan Astorbilt]

The Lyman Ram Prime Die set has an anvil which replaces the shell holder. This would be just the ticket for sizing up to the rim. It resembles the anvil on a Rockwell Tester.
Morgan