Original 45 Colt

[jmaurer]

Folks:

Does the Lyman 454190 approximate the original bullet design of early (army issue) 45 Colt ammunition? If not, what presently-available mold would be suitable to duplicate the original cartridges?

Thanks!

[Bullshop]

I have been wondering the same thing. I can not yet say for certain but so this is what I think I am seeing. The current offering is a modified version with larger meplate better suited to coyboy shooting. The origonal design is a close copy of the origonal milsurp design. Origonally the 45 colt was not chambered in any rifle/carbine so did not need much of a meplate, or even a rim on the case. Both those things have changed with the use of the cartridge in lever actions.
The origonal BP load had quite a reputation for deep penitration with that small meplate.
I have seen some of the older molds from Lyman that were definately the origonal design.
Since they were Ideal before Lyman I would think that if you found an ideal mold #454190 it will be for the origonal design. I think the current Lyman has changed the # to 452190. A mold for the origonal 454190 will drop a boolit at about .457" which would have been better suited to the guns of that time.
I have been patiantly waiting for an old 4 cav. 454190 but they always go for way more than I am willing to pay. These are just my observations and not neccessarilly the true life facts.
BIC/BS

[454PB]

My very first single cavity Lyman mould was the 454190, and it certainly looks to be identical to the original .45 Colt boolit. I bought it 37 years ago and still have it.

[floodgate]

jmaurer:

YES! Like most of the early Ideal moulds and fixed seat-crimp chambers for the original tong tools, it was originally cut to exactly duplicate the factory bullet profiles. No telling, though, how far a modern Lyman mould may have "drifted" from the original profile after 100+ years.

Fg

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I have been wondering the same thing. I can not yet say for certain but so this is what I think I am seeing. The current offering is a modified version with larger meplate better suited to coyboy shooting. The origonal design is a close copy of the origonal milsurp design. Origonally the 45 colt was not chambered in any rifle/carbine so did not need much of a meplate, or even a rim on the case. Both those things have changed with the use of the cartridge in lever actions.
The origonal BP load had quite a reputation for deep penitration with that small meplate.
I have seen some of the older molds from Lyman that were definately the origonal design.
Since they were Ideal before Lyman I would think that if you found an ideal mold #454190 it will be for the origonal design. I think the current Lyman has changed the # to 452190. A mold for the origonal 454190 will drop a boolit at about .457" which would have been better suited to the guns of that time.
I have been patiantly waiting for an old 4 cav. 454190 but they always go for way more than I am willing to pay. These are just my observations and not neccessarilly the true life facts.
BIC/BS

Without a rim, where would you have it headspace in the SAA, on the roll crimped case mouth? Just curious.
Morgan

[junkbug]

The original ballon headed cases did have a rim, just for that purpose. But it was very small, noticeably smaller than the 44-40 (44 WCF)'s rim, which had to be sturdy enough to facilitate extraction from a sooty Winchester 1873 rifle chamber.

The US Army M-1909 Revolver was a double action (New Service) revolver chambered for a hybrid cartridge that is no longer loaded. In most aspects, it was like a .45 Colt cartridge, but it had a rim nearly as big as the 44-40 (44 WCF) has, so that the empty cases could be extracted by the cylinder star. Evidently, extraction with the original 45 Colt cartridge wasn't viewed as being reliable enough for military use.

Sean

[KCSO]

The F/A bullets and the Peters and UMC bulets I have pulled are all a semi hollow base design. The only mould I have ever seen that made a duplicate of the h/b bullet was an NEI and I couldn't afford it. The original bullets I have all mike between 454 and 456. The most B/p I have been able to get out of a case was 37 grains and the military loads were all 28 grains. Peters loads with b/p circa 1930 chronographed 900 fps from a 7 1/2" revolver. I did not shoot for groups as the lube was about gone. estern Tool and Copper Co. loads re lubed ran 925 average and had 36 grains of what would screen now as FFg. The relubed oads for 5 shots went into 2 3/4" at 25 yards. The Bullets miked 454 and were soft lead with a hollow base. It looks like the base was swedged into the bullet afer it was cast?

[Bullshop]

I was not saying the the milsurp 45 had no rim. What I was saying is that it didnt have much rim, not enough for positive extraction in an early lever gun but enough to keep from falling through a revolver cylender. Remember a SA revolver does not use a rim for extraction.
454pb
You dun had that mold long enough. Its time to give it up now. You send it on over here now ya hear.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Tell me about it! Been shooting Cowboy Action for four years. Actually have come to love those SAA's.
Morgan (My cowboy name)

[MtGun44]

One issue that comes to mind is that there is no crimp groove in
the original design because the case was full of BP so the boolit
couldn't push in. With smokeless, seems like you'd want a crimp
groove.

Just thinkin' -- known to cause all sorts of problems.

Bill

[pjh421]

Thanks, KCSO for the excellent answer!

Paul

[ddeaton]

To chime in, what is a good mold for the saa that is currently available and reasonable? What do most shoot in the cowboy shoots?

[Dale53]

I have shot a good bit with the Lyman Cowboy bullet (452664) with excellent results both with smokeless and black powder. I won several BPC matches with this bullet in a Ruger Bisley Vaquero (including some score matches). Good bullet. However, this bullet will not go down well with the competitive Cowboy crowd that wants a very light bullet that just clears the barrel (sparrow loads).

If that is your pleasure, then the Lee 452-160 RF or the Lee 452-200 RF (can be had in a six cavity mould) may be more in line with what is desired.

Dale53

[Cherokee]

I use the RCBS 45-230CM bullet for SASS. 230 gr FN from wheel weights.

[beagle]

I cast and shoot a lot of 454190s and the HP version in both the .45 Colt and a .45 ACP Ruger convertible. It's adarn good bullet for both applications.

Supposedly, it was made to duplicate the original .45 Colt bullet without the hollow base.

NEI indeed does make a HB version and I've looked at it several times as it's pricey. I get caught on that site and keep getting slaps on the back of the head from management and told to, "move on"./beagle

[GLL]

Here is an old IDEAL 454190 mould (square lube grooves) and a newer LYMAN 454190 (round lube grooves) which has been converted to HP by Buckshot. Can someone post a photo of an original .45Colt bullet to compare?

Jerry

[Bullshop]

Say that looks suspiciously like the missing knob off my dresser drawer.
So can ya tell me what diameter the new one drops at it say ww alloy? Also just how new is it, 70's, 80's 90's older, newer?
BIC/BS

[ktw]

I have two sets of DC 454190 blocks. One is recent vintage that I bought new from Midsouth within the last two years. The other I received in a trade and I would estimate that it is roughly 20 years old based on what little I know of it's history (this was one of the "Molly molds")

Both cast .4535-.4540" boolits in my 8 bhn range scrap alloy. I would expect them to throw a solid .4540+ in 12-13 bhn WW alloy.

-ktw

[GLL]

Dan:

The newer Lyman (rounded lube groove) 454190 is cherry #378 but I have no idea concerning its vintage. I have a 2-cavity version as well but it is buried in the shop somewhere !

Diameters with WW+2%Sn are 0.454-0.455"

Jerry

[opentop]

Would anyone be interested in a group by on this bullet to reproduce an original looking 45 colt bullet? The new lyman 454190 has a wide metplate, while the older lyman and ideal molds pictured above have a small metplate.