Condition 3 carry

[preparehandbook]

How many of you carry condition 3 (Loaded mag, empty chamber, safety off)?

I carry an M57A Tokarev which allows:

• Condition Russian, Chambered, half cock locked (not drop safe, slide and trigger locked until hammer is cocked).
• Condition 1, Chambered, Cocked, locked (Drop safe, slide can be operated on safe).
• Condition 2, Chambered, hammer down, safety off (not drop safe), or safety on (drop safe).
• Condition 3, Chamber empty, safety off.

I usually carry condition 3. I feel it is a bit safer with kids around, etc. and as I grew up with condition 2 and condition 3 carry. If the Tok was drop safe without the safety on in condition 2 I would carry it thusly, as I can cock a hammer on draw long before I am up and on target.

Condition Russian, with the Tok on it's half cock (more of a 1/5th lock) is kind of neat because if you lose control of the gun most westerners are not going to sort out how to get it running very quickly, at least not before I beat them into submission with my cane.

I hear a lot of talk about condition 2 and 3 being "too slow" but I have never heard of an instance where this extra time caused a problem. In many areas of the world condition 3 is mandatory and it doesn't seem to slow people down when stuff goes pear shaped. What I do see is a whole lot of negligent discharges in the news.

Why is condition 3 so slow for Americans, but the rest of the world does ok with it.

Any thoughts?

[Hickok]

Sometimes I carry a Glock 27 shoved down in the top of my western style cowboy boots and then pull my pants leg over the boot. I too have the Glock in condition 3 using this style of carry, because I just don't trust the Glock style trigger if the pistol is not in a holster that protects it from getting snagged or hooked on clothing that can cause a discharge.

Since the pistol is shoved down the top of my boot, I figure if I have to go through the motions of lifting my pants cuff to get the handgun out, I could rack one in the chamber if the need arises, because this ain't gonna be a fast draw anyway!

Maybe not the best or fastest way, but this is the way I have to carry a handgun at times, or go without, which I am not going to do!

[Walkingwolf]

I carry condition 1, but advocate others make their own choice.

[Omega]

I carry either a glock 23 or an XDs .40 in locked and cocked condition. I practice getting a gun into shooting condition from all manner of conditions because you never know what gun you will end up with in critical situations. The trick is to keep the booger hook out of the trigger well until you need to squeeze the trigger, and not to fiddle with a loaded gun unless you are drawing it to use.

[Outpost75]

Russian carry is unsafe.

With older designs such as the TT33 and Beretta M1934 I favor Condition 3. In addition I carry the gun with the hammer at full cock with the chamber EMPTY. This reduces effort needed to rack the slide and provides intimidation value upon presentation if you need more time to rack the slide, because you have not learned and practiced the technique for this carry as demonstrated in the video link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGD2j9ks38g

[Walkingwolf]

Russian carry?

[bedbugbilly]

Everyone should carry in the manner that they are most confident with - it's a personal choice.

Personally - I usually carry a revolver - it's always ready to go. I have recently picked up a 9mm Shield to switch off to once in a while - that will be carried with one in the tube - safety on ready to be thumb swept off if necessary to remove from holster. My holsters all cover the trigger. I sometimes carry a SR9 in the same manner.

Any class I've ever taken on SD it has beens stressed to carry with one in the tube (semi) or full cylinder on a revolver with a cross bar. And I will also state that the training I've received has been from LE officers and former Spec. Ops. Military - all of whom have had field experience backing up what they stress. As they have all stated - a good holster which covers the trigger to prevent any possible accidental snagging and which holds the weapon securely but allows quick withdrawal - there should never be a problem. Most SD situations are going to happen in a matter of seconds and the last thing I want to be doing with a semi-auto is to be remembering a round has to be racked. But again . . . it's personal choice.

As far as "losing control of your gun" . . . it is your responsibility to "be in control of your gun". As my instructors have stated time and again . . . if someone tries to take possession of your handgun, you'd better be fighting like #$%#^%$ for to have them take it from you is going to result with you being dead.

Just curious . . . you show you are from "west coast of USA" . . so I'm assuming Kalifornia. As Walingwolf states . . "Russian carry"? You obviously are enamored with your Tok which is fine . . everybody likes different things. If you are carrying legally, then you would have had to have taken classes to do so. What did YOUR instructors tell you as far as carrying? Just curious . . .

[Jupiter7]

Condition 3 leaves too many "what if's" open for me. I carry at all times, except while in the building at work, a round is always chambered.

[Outpost75]

Russian carry?

Chamber loaded. Hammer lowered to half-cock notch. NOT drop safe!!!!!~!

[Blackwater]

The only time I've ever used Cond. 3 is when my son was really young, and I was concerned about his safety. Kept it in the top drawer of the dresser, and by the time he was old enough to rack the slide, he was trained in its operation, and had fired it, and found the recoil more than he wanted. This let me rest easy, and if he'd ever needed it when I wasn't there, I knew he knew how to use it. My wife never seemed to even WANT to know how to use it, but I finally got her trained on it too.

Some 1911 holsters tend to knock the safety lever off safe, and with those, I've always used a thumb snap, and kept constant check on the safety's position. I think it's the Bianchi #1L that used to do that, but there are others from what I've seen and understand from others.

If handled properly (emphasis on the "properly"), a 1911 is entirely safe, and I've never had an accidental discharge with one. I've never deactivated the grip safeties as was once recommended by some, and never had a problem making them work.

Good, safe carry is more a matter of state of mind and training than it is any combination of "mechanical safeties." That's what I've found, at least. The wrong state of mind, and NO pistol is "safe," no matter how many "safeties" it has on it.

[preparehandbook]

In a TT33 in good condition, using military ammo, Russian carry is safe. It is an accepted method of carry in more than 20 countries.

The original hard primers could be set off from dropping the gun... off a building.

Modern primers aren't any stiffer than any other, and many surplus TT's have warn hammer packs leading to an unsafe half cock. A properly functioning TT on half cock is only 1/5 of travel so cannot set off the round if released. I have seen one in good shape hammered on a bench until the hammer broke and it did not fire the primer.

I do not carry this way, but I have enough spare TT's that one of these days I will see exactly how far a drop it will take to set off a modern style primer.

[gray wolf]

Why is condition 3 so slow for Americans, but the rest of the world does ok with it.

OK--simple drill,
Holster your >>> EMPTY <<< firearm have someone come within arms distance - contact distance, and draw there EMPTY firearm as if to shoot you .
Please don't tell me your going to draw against an already exposed gun that may be out or half way out of there holster.
Trying to beat action with reaction is silliness, and Doing so will put two guns in play.
A right handed person would be trying to tie up the bad guys gun with the left hand while making a contact body shot with the right hand.
Thus leaving no hand to rack a slide.

This is not beyond the realm of what can and does happen.

Can you draw and fire a combat accurate shot in 1 second or under 1.5 seconds?
Most gunfights are over in less than 3 or 4 seconds, So a 1.5 second draw and fire accurately has used up almost 50% of that time.
A highly trained person may try a take-a-way with the left hand. How highly trained are you ?

you-tube videos are far from my favorite cause they show many unskilled people doing some very unskilled things,
trying to show other unskilled people how to do things. But Here are a few that may drive the point home.
If you choose to ignore the fact that it can happen-then be it as it may.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKso6R10OJ0



and another
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqQAgtNMwDY

I won't comment on UN-holstered boot carry,
or on the very common pocket carry,
what if your bending down and fixing a shoe lace ?
or picking up a set of dropped car keys ? the gun is now compressed between your upper body and you almost have to stand to get the gun out.

Problem is most folks do not practice much at all, I know, all of us here practice till we don't get it wrong--right ?
Thing is people do not practice close contact situations,
but rather create shooting situations in there head that keeps them in there comfort zone.

I have taken a lot of CCW people that think they are prepared for the real world and in less than 5 minutes proved to them how unsafe they are with an empty chamber.
About as empty as there words are when they say: yea but that won't happen to me.

If you do not have a shot timer or have not downloaded an APT for your phone, here is one you can download to your desktop PC
It does not record shots but can be set for different times.
At least you can see if you can beat the set time on a draw and fire with an EMPTY gun.
The free download is very good to get the idea of how fast you are.

http://dryfirepractice.com/the-timer#

The original hard primers could be set off from dropping the gun... off a building.

I know I may be old, BUT-- I can't remember the last time I dropped a gun off a building.

[Walkingwolf]

Chamber loaded. Hammer lowered to half-cock notch. NOT drop safe!!!!!~!

Got it, but even though it is not drop safe do you really think that will make a difference to others. This is what has always bugged me about the do it my way or the highway gun crowd. It is a fruitless effort in futility trying to convince others to do it my way.

The only thing I try to convince others of is they have a choice, and that they alone take responsibility for that choice. My life is a lot calmer that way.

[Outpost75]

Got it, but even though it is not drop safe do you really think that will make a difference to others. This is what has always bugged me about the do it my way or the highway gun crowd. It is a fruitless effort in futility trying to convince others to do it my way. The only thing I try to convince others of is they have a choice, and that they alone take responsibility for that choice. My life is a lot calmer that way.

IF that is the only pistol you have, then you must decide your mode of carry based on the threat assessment and risk analysis. In a combat zone some people are willing to compromise safety to speed response time. In civilian personal defense situations, I don't feel that doing so is worth the risk.

My preference is to carry a handgun which is safe to carry with the chamber loaded, and which can be drawn and fired immediately by the trigger stroke only, without manipulation of an external safety lever. The gun must also permit an immediate repeat strike on a misfired primer, without requiring two hands to "tap, rack, bang!" It should also be capable of safe one-hand reholstering.

My preference is a revolver or a DA autoloader. I do have and practice with single-action revolvers and autoloaders, but they are not my first choice for defensive carry. However, if carrying one afield, if it is needed for that purpose, you dance with the girl you brought to the party.

[Babbott213]

A empty gun is only an object that can be thrown. Practice with your EDC folks and your best safety is your trigger finger. Keep it off the trigger until ready to fire.

[Char-Gar]

I am not a tactical maven, so split seconds don't really mean much to me.

Your first line of defense is never to go where trash people hang out.

Your second line of defense is to keep your eyes open at all time and be aware of who is around you and what they are doing.

If you do 1 and 2 above, it is not likely that the partial second it takes to rack the slide to chamber a round will prove fatal.

[rondog]

An unloaded gun is nothing but an unwieldy club. If you're attacked by a bad guy he's most likely to be on you before you know what's happening. Getting enough notice of an impending attack to be able to draw and rack the slide is a very slim chance. You may not even get the chance to cock the hammer, let alone the luxury of using both hands to rack a slide efficiently enough to charge your gun properly.

I want my pistol ready to go instantly. To me that means a 1911 in Con 1 or a DA revolver. I don't trust any kind of striker-fired pistols, especially those with no manual safeties. Flicking off a thumb safety is so fast, easy and second nature that it's essentially a non-action to me. As I draw, that's just where my thumb goes, and it's disengaged long before presentation.

Don't even get me started about ankle or boot carry -

[tinhorn97062]

I am not a tactical maven, so split seconds don't really mean much to me.

Your first line of defense is never to go where trash people hang out.

Your second line of defense is to keep your eyes open at all time and be aware of who is around you and what they are doing.

If you do 1 and 2 above, it is not likely that the partial second it takes to rack the slide to chamber a round will prove fatal.

Sound advice...I do both 1 and 2. Many places, I simply avoid. I have nothing to prove and no desire for a person to test whether or not I can "handle myself". But, evil folks can be found in many places....so I'm always armed and it's always ready to go.

[rondog]

Sound advice...I do both 1 and 2. Many places, I simply avoid. I have nothing to prove and no desire for a person to test whether or not I can "handle myself". But, evil folks can be found in many places....so I'm always armed and it's always ready to go.

I absolutely agree about 1 & 2! I avoid going out in public so much I'm dang near a hermit. And when I do, I'm hawk-eyeing everyone around so much people probably think I'm a weirdo. Has helped me spot some shady looking characters and hinky situations though.

[gray wolf]

An unloaded gun is nothing but an unwieldy club. If you're attacked by a bad guy he's most likely to be on you before you know what's happening. Getting enough notice of an impending attack to be able to draw and rack the slide is a very slim chance. You may not even get the chance to cock the hammer, let alone the luxury of using both hands to rack a slide efficiently enough to charge your gun properly.

I want my pistol ready to go instantly. To me that means a 1911 in Con 1 or a DA revolver. I don't trust any kind of striker-fired pistols, especially those with no manual safeties. Flicking off a thumb safety is so fast, easy and second nature that it's essentially a non-action to me. As I draw, that's just where my thumb goes, and it's disengaged long before presentation.

I couldn't agree more,
the issue is not one side of the argument trying to convince the other side.
You could do all kinds of drills that show how ineffective an empty chamber can be.
I posted two good videos that make it very clear and prove the point.
When the student is ready the teacher will appear.
some people are just not comfortable having a fully loaded gun on there person.

You are either 100% ready to fight and defend, or your not.
IMHO an empty chamber is being almost ready to save your life,
against someone who is 100% committed to take it.