Anyone ever use their pistol-mold bullets in their muzzleloaders?

[C. Latch]

Hey folks,

Long time, no see. Turns out the place my wife and I moved to a year ago is full of great fishing spots, and I took the summer off from shooting. Literally. Haven't reloaded a round all summer. Haven't cast a bullet since late last winter.

But I did run into a T/C Seneca muzzleloader the other day.

So, here in a few days, when it shows up in the mail, I'm going to need some ammo. I have a .45-200 Lee R.E.A.L. mold and sort of want to try the 250-grain version of same. The seller has also said he'd throw in a round ball mold, so I have that option. But I sort of want to have something on hand to shoot when it gets here.

I assume that I could take my Lee 452-255-rf mold, cast some out of near-pure lead, and paper patch them, but could I possibly shoot them with any success as bare (but lubed) bullets? If they were sized to .451, would I even be able to load them? What's the normal bore diameter on a T/C .45?

[Tatume]

Hi C.,

I use 45 caliber pistol bullets in ML rifles. I size the soft lead bullets so they load easily (I have an assortment of 45 sizer dies, from 0.450" and up several thousandths). For target shooting I like them to load very easily, and for hunting I like a little more resistance. The reason is I don't want the bullet to migrate away from the powder charge during a day afield. Either way they shoot to the same point of aim.

You may want to use a lubricated felt wad, as pistol bullets don't carry as much lube as dedicated ML bullets.

Take care, Tom

[idahoron]

I am using the Lee C-501-440-RF 500 S&W bullet in my 50 cal. I paper patch them and size them to .501 and they are ready to go.

[C. Latch]

Thanks, folks!

I really want to try paper-patching but I'm sort of in the position where, if I want to hunt with this a month from now, I have to find something that works and works immediately, so I doubt that I'll try paper patching right now (it's been on my list for a long time, and I probably would have tried it if I didn't get bit with the smallmouth bass bug this summer).

Tom, I'll get some felt wads and try that very thing. I have a .451 die and I have .45 molds that will drop, with near pure lead, at something like 210, 250, 265, 270, and 285ish. The one that drops around 270 (that's a guess as I've never cast pure lead in that mold) has bigger lube grooves. That may be where I start.

[johnson1942]

all you have to do to get that gun of yours shooting holes in holes is get a .440 push through resizer and resize your 200 to 250 grain bullets to .440. double wrap dry with 9 pound paper or single wrap with 18 pound paper. use a 60 thousands thick fiber or poly wad between bullet and powder. when i had a .45 thompson 1/48 twist i would get 1 inch groups at 100 yards with 100 grains of real black behind the bullet doing what i wrote above. the only reason i dont do that any more is i sold the barrel to kroger and put a douglass 45 cal 1/18 twist on that stock. now i shoot paperpatched 500 grain bullets. your bullet will work great, just reduce them to .440 and paperpatch.

[Good Cheer]

These work good in my TC .458 bore.

[AnnieOakley]

Good Cheer, what kind of paper do you have there? I have a TC .45 Hawken that I shot for the first time last weekend. We shot it with .440 PRB and then with the .45 maxi-ball with a felt wad. We had much better results with the maxi-ball. After the boolits get started they fall down the bore easily.

Thank you Mr. Johnson, by the way, for the .50 paper patched boolits. They are awesome!

[C. Latch]

These work good in my TC .458 bore.

You mention .458 bore? Is that a factory TC barrel? Do the Hawken/Seneca barrels normally run that large?

I'm also interested in knowing what sort of paper you use, as Amazon.com only has 9# onion skin in 500-sheet reams, which is a bit more than I need.

[Motor]

Not yet. But I have tried a couple ML boolits in my 500 Smith&Wesson and they work great at low velocity.

The Lee 250gr REAL and the Lee 340gr? hallow base mini.

Motor

[OverMax]

I have used T/C break away sabot with a RCBS 245 gr.SWC in my 54 cal Hawken. Accuracy was pretty good out to 100 being its bullet weight was a shade heavier than its usual 235 gr. P/Ball. Also the Soft lead 44 bullet fit into its T/C sabot better than I had anticipated. (nice & tight)

[Lloyd Smale]

cant explain why but in 3 inlines that ive owned over the years jacketed bullets in sabots outshoot cast in sabots hands down and ive tried ALOT of different cast bullets. Maybe I just never lucked into the right combo.

[Taylor]

Attachment 151238I use a Lyman 429421 with a harvester sabot.Attachment 151237

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer, what kind of paper do you have there? I have a TC .45 Hawken that I shot for the first time last weekend. We shot it with .440 PRB and then with the .45 maxi-ball with a felt wad. We had much better results with the maxi-ball. After the boolits get started they fall down the bore easily.

Thank you Mr. Johnson, by the way, for the .50 paper patched boolits. They are awesome!

It's the same old nine pound rag paper that I try to use for everything.

[Good Cheer]

You mention .458 bore? Is that a factory TC barrel? Do the Hawken/Seneca barrels normally run that large?

I'm also interested in knowing what sort of paper you use, as Amazon.com only has 9# onion skin in 500-sheet reams, which is a bit more than I need.

It's a .54 barrel that was relined to have a .458" bore diameter so's it could use off the shelf rifle molds, soft cast and finger lubed. That the .45Colt boolits work paper patched was kind of a happy happenstance.

[Good Cheer]

By the way, I put in a lot of time trying to get the 48" twist GM .40 barrels to shoot various pistol molds. Never was able to get them to shoot consistently. I'd get all lathered up with a few holes in the target and then as they say the group started looking like a pattern. Tried pistol molds with a 16" twist .40 and couldn't get it to shoot consistently. Somewhere in between 16" and 48" is the sweet spot that nobody makes barrels for!

[C. Latch]

By the way, I put in a lot of time trying to get the 48" twist GM .40 barrels to shoot various pistol molds. Never was able to get them to shoot consistently. I'd get all lathered up with a few holes in the target and then as they say the group started looking like a pattern. Tried pistol molds with a 16" twist .40 and couldn't get it to shoot consistently. Somewhere in between 16" and 48" is the sweet spot that nobody makes barrels for!

I cast some Lee 452-255-rf bullets today out of soft lead (SOWW, I think, with 1% tin). Their lube grooves aren't very deep, but the bullet has a long bearing length, which would seem to be important for a muzzleloader bullet.

In theory, they're too long to stabilize well with a 1-48". Time will tell.

[curator]

I load both LBT LFN 280/432 and 280/.454 LBT LFN boolits in the appropriate sabots under both Triple seven and real black powder. Both give excellent accuracy and down range effectiveness. The LBT LFN design creates a large wound channel and terminal performance equaling or exceeding hollow point bullets. Finding a plastic sabot that provides accuracy with these slugs is not difficult.

[C. Latch]

The rifle showed up last night. It was after dark so I couldn't shoot it immediately. After work today I ensured that it was unloaded, fired a cap in the empty barrel, then loaded with with 60 grains (a light load, for starters) and one of my 452-255-rf bullets, sized to .452. I shot three of them. No leading (lubed with beeswax and olive oil, over two thicknesses of paper plate punched out with an empty .45ACP cartridge, until I can get some felt wads) and while one shot hang-fired (my fault, caps were tight and I didn't mash one down on the nipple properly) the other two made a pair of snake eyes at 25 yards, offhand.

Hopefully in the near future I can see if the bullets will stay stable at longer distances, and maybe up my charge to 70 grains (I've heard that the Seneca stocks were prone to crack if heavy loads are used often, so I'll probably stop at 70 if it shoots well).

I still want to try paper patching but it may take a while.


edit:

Bullets sized to .452 loaded tightly. With a fouled bore and/or if trying to reload from a treestand, I think I'd rather have them .451 so the next batch will go through a .451 sizer.

[C. Latch]

Ok, shot a little more yesterday:

.451s definitely load easier than .452s.

Shoots decent at 25-50 yards with 70 grains of FFg. I have poor eyesight, and while I can shoot perfectly fine with optics and decently with peep sights, I stink with irons. SO it may well shoot very well. I won't know unless someone else shoots it.


Here's something weird, though:

The barrel channel has been bedded with some sort of epoxy, whoever did it was very skilled, and the bedding has, in reverse type, the following stamped into it: Getz, Beavertown, PA.

Does that mean that this rifle was bedded by Getz?

Its previous owner said it was an absolute tackdriver with round balls.