Ranger/Wollensak vintage scope questions

[Jackpine]

Howdy,

Hope this is not off topic, but there is no forum for optics, and i want to use this on a single shot.

I am looking for someone who has knowledge of Ranger/Wollensak scopes. They are the old style, built I believe in the 30's and/or 40's, with the external adjustments similar to Malcolms or Unertls. I believe they were originally marketed for rimfire target rifles.

I shoot in a long range cowboy match once a year that has a scoped class and would like to shoot in that class, but don't want to spend the $300 to $600 to buy a Malcolm or repro. I see these Wollensak scopes selling for between $50 and $100, but don't know if they would stand up to recoil. I would be mounting in on either a Sharps repro in 40-56 or a Browning Highwall in 45/70, probably running a 400 grain cast bullet in either, ideally at about 1300 fps, but could drop to 1000 fps, if that would be required to not damage adjustment mechanisms. Also, I cannot find exactly what kind of bases they use.

Does anyone have any experience with these scopes that could give me some insight.

Thanks,

Jackpine

[marlinman93]

Yes, I have a number of this style scope in my scope collection. Since the mounts allow the scope to slide in them, the recoil isn't usually an issue. Of course pulling the scope back after each shot is required, but the fact it needs to be pulled back saves the crosshairs.
You'll find they wont have enough altitude adjustment for very long ranges, so the mounts are the hindrance in using these scopes for long range work. You might get 300 yds., but beyond that you'll need a taller rear base, and eventually you may get tall enough the scope binds in the front ring, and wont slide under recoil. Even the more expensive scopes wont get out very far without a Malcolm style long range rear mount that allows it.
The bases they use are the typical Lyman style target scope bases. I keep a bunch of them in various spacing and height, and have fired my old single shot rifles out to 500 yds. using a taller rear base. But that's about it for distance with standard rings, and an elevated rear base.

Most people refer to all the inexpensive shorter 17"-19" scopes as Wollensak. But there were numerous makers building these and some were built by Wollensak for others, but not all.

[Jackpine]

Thanks for the reply and the info Marlinman. The match I want to use this in is only 300 yards, so maybe this would work.

Do you know if the bases for these were standardized, or did each maker have their own bases with unique mounting cuts on them?

Also, can you explain what the difference is between the Malcolm rear mounts and the others. Sorry to be so ignorant, but any more info you can supply would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,

Jackpine

[marlinman93]

Unertl, Lyman, Stevens, etc. used very similar bases, but different securing cuts. Unertl used their posi-lock setup, which is a circular cut, and their mounts has a cup shape piece that locks into it. Most others used a single pointed screw that had a hole in the base to index on. Many older mounts had the two styles on each side, so a base could be reversed to work on either style scope.
Mounts and rings can be very different between the old scopes, and most inexpensive mounts use a 3 point rear adjustment, with elevation, windage, and a spring loaded point of contact. The adjustment has no clicks, so repeating or changing settings is not precise, and 3 points is also not optimum for accuracy.
The 4 point, and the 4 point with click adjustment is a much better mount for accuracy, and some inexpensive scopes did come with them! The Marlin scopes had the option of getting 3 or 4 point mounts. Neither click, but the 4 point work better. My old Ranger scope is a great inexpensive scope, as it has super optics, and 4 point, click adjustments.
But some target shooters in the old days liked non click mounts better, as they said they could fine adjust the scope better. Not sure I buy that, as a 1/8 MOA or even 1/4 MOA click is tough to do in smaller increments for most people. But I own an old Stevens scope that sits in a pair of HM Pope mounts, and Pope didn't use click adjustments on his mounts. He did do one unique thing on his mounts, and that was his left hand thread for windage. It made the scope adjust like iron sights did, so shooters going from irons to scope turned the screws the same way to change windage the same direction. Pope only made about 50-60 sets of his mounts, so not a big seller for him.

[Jackpine]

Marlinman,

Thanks for all the info. It is very helpful.

First of all, I think owning anything made by Harry M Pope, regardless of what it is, is holding onto a great piece of history. If I didn't say I was a little envious, I would not be telling the truth.

One of the stipulated rules in the match I want to shoot in, is that the adjustments do NOT have click adjustments. Are the click adjustments found on only certain makes or did that feature simply vary by model. Also, if the scope has click adjustments, are they ball and detent or spring arm or ?? and more importantly, would the click be fairly easy to eliminate, without damaging the unit and be easily reinstalled, or are they permanently installed.

I am currently watching Ebay for one of these, but are there any other sources you would recommend.

Thanks again for all your info,

Jackpine

[marlinman93]

The clicks are usually ball and detent, and removing them would be permanent for most of these old scopes. If you look at the mounts on any you're interested in and see a locking ring on the adjusters, they aren't click adjustable. No lock ring almost always indicates a click type mount.
Yes, I also consider having anything made by Pope a very desirable item! I wouldn't have these scope mounts if I hadn't simply gotten lucky. I saw a Ballard #6 Schuetzen rifle converted to .22 Short on the old Auction Arms site, and it had a Stevens scope and mounts on it. Seller was not a gun guy, and had a "buy it now" of $1600 on the gun and scope. I snatched it quickly, and was very lucky to see it so early! When it arrived I tried to slide the scope off it's bases, but it wouldn't budge. I eventually took the securing screws completely off, and the scope rings opened up like a clam shell. That was weird, as I'd never seen rings with a hinge point on top? I showed them to a friend who was a more advanced collector than I was then, and he said he'd give me $2,000 for the rings. I declined and he smiled and told me what they were. He said the last pair he'd seen sell at an auction were 20 years ago and they went for $2500, and they didn't have Pope's bases for the barrel lie mine does.
So I simply got very lucky. The gun turned out to be something special also. A #6 reworked to .22 Short would be worth less than original, but this gun turned out to be fitted with an offset barrel, so the CF firing pin strikes the rimfire shell without modifying the action. The gun is also a Zettler Bros rifled barrel, and built by Zettler Bros. in NY City in the late 1800's. A win all around, and unusual for a gun auction site.
I hope you find a Wollensak or other inexpensive scope cheap! It's getting tough to find one under $200 these days, especially if the optics are clean and clear! I find them cheap with dirty optics, or broken crosshairs. Even under $100 if they're broken and dirty. But clean usable old cheap scopes aren't cheap anymore.

[Jackpine]

Marlinman,

That was a great score on both the rifle and the scope mounts. And besides being a great price, I bet it is just a sweet rifle.

I hate to show my ignorance again, but I guess that part is already really obvious. I have only actually seen a couple of these scopes up close, and they were on rifles someone was shooting, so obviously did not play with the adjustments. I would like to get a little clearer understanding of the click vs the lock ring knobs. Are the click knobs similar to the knobs on the Unertl target scopes (kind of a thimble, similar to the knob on a conventional micrometer, and are the lock ring style more of a machine screw with a thin knurled head and a thin knurled round not that tightens against the ring body. (hope that makes a little sense.)

Continued thanks,

Jackpine

[marlinman93]

Those are very good questions, and your description is also pretty darn close! Click knobs vary between makers, and on inexpensive scopes the click turrets are usually smaller in diameter than those on fine target scopes like Unertl and others. Only about 3/8"-1/2" diameter. On non adjustable the turrets are as you described and have serrations on the adjusters and lock rings for easy turning and tightening by fingertips.
The Pope rings I mentioned used a tension screw between elevation and windage adjustments to clamp the threads and retain settings. So a screwdriver was required to loosen the screw to adjust them.
Pope rings:


Zettler with Pope rings and Stevens scope:


This a picture I grabbed off the internet. Non click locking ring style. Looks like a new Leatherwood repro:
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/media...amour462_1.jpg

This is a Lyman scope with offset mounts and click adjustment:


Stevens full length with Stevens non click mounts:


Have numerous pictures I could email you if you would like to see some various styles of mounts and scopes?

[Jackpine]

Marlinman,

You confirmed what I assumed were the differences between the click and non click, based on pictures I had found on line.

I really enjoyed the pics of the Zettler. That is history, classic engineering, workmanship, artwork and nostalgia, all rolled into one
package.

Thanks again for your patience and answering all my questions. Now I just have to find a scope.

Good shooting and good luck to you with future finds.

Jackpine