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Thread: BSA Cadet rifle in 32-20, groove/chamber incompatibility.

  1. #21
    Boolit Bub
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    holy.............................................. ..... 650 quid???????????? i just paid $400 aud for a vic gov marked cadet in .297-230 morris!

  2. #22
    Boolit Master stubbicatt's Avatar
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    Good news. The RCBS heeled bullet mould arrived, and made some boolits yesterday. They are an easy slip fit in the 32-20 case mouths. Unfortunately, they are a little too long to chamber in the rifle, so I'll get a Lee 32 magnum trimmer to trim the fired cases to 1.2 inches.

    The issues as I see them now is that the as fired cases are *just* a little too large to securely hold a heeled bullet, and pan lubing promises to be interesting. Perhaps if the boolits can be pushed out from the bullet base, they will leave grease in the groove, but not adhering to the heeled portion. The issue of increasing neck tension on the heel enough to hold them in place is a little more problematic.

    It seems the necks will be trimmed approximately 0.75" shorter, so they should size down just fine in the 32-20 FL die. Expanding them and flaring them just enough to hold the bullet might take a little figuring them out. I have also read elsewhere that the seating die is probably incompatible with these larger diameter heeled bullets, that they tend to get stuck in the standard seating die, which seating operation will become necessary if I cannot thumb seat them.

    Anybody know if the Lee FCD will crimp a 1.2" long case onto the heeled base? Best option seems to me to be hand seating bullets in "as fired" cases, and crimping them if possible.
    Hate is a poison which one consumes expecting another to die.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master



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    Using Lee liquid alox for lube has the added advantage of being sticky enough to "glue" the bullets into the cases without a crimp.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    I am pretty sure that the Lee 3 die set have expanded and seated RCBS heeled bullets in 1.075 cases. 1.2 should be no problem. You might be able to neck size using a short 32 pistol sized like 32 auto. I haven't got access to a book that would tell me what would work at the moment.

    The .323 bullets definitely get stuck. It is very annoying.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master Hooker53's Avatar
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    Stubbicatt, I had the same seating prob you did and setting the Boolit by hand is the only way for my cases. The Lee FCD won't work on the trimmed cases as I tried to make it work. I had to alter the FCD to work with the trimmed cases. If you want one done, PM me and I'll fire my lathe up and do it. A lot of my problems went way when I started Factory crimping them. I also upside down size mine in my Lyman 450 so I can grease the lube groove. This also assures the crimping on them. Keep shooting guys

    Roy
    Hooker53

  6. #26
    Boolit Master stubbicatt's Avatar
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    So Hooker53, you reckon just to thumb seat them, and then FCD them with a modified FCD? If that will work, that's definitely the way to go. I still have to make an estimate at how much shorter the cases need to be to chamber properly. There is a youtube video by an Australian Veterinarian on loading the 310 Greener, and he suggests using the 32 Magnum Lee trimmer to get the cases to 1.2 inches, which is where I will start.

    Once I have that length determined, I'll send a PM to work out the details on shortening the die and collet assemblies on the Lee FCD. Thanks for offering to help in that regard.

    I'd much prefer to pan lube, but if not I feel confident that Lathesmith can make a die and punch set that will work on my Star lube sizer with one row of holes to just fill the groove without greasing the heel. But that is a little further down the road I think, if I can't make pan lube work.

    I have tried the LLA before and I just didn't like it all that much. It might be a tidy answer, and I may try it, but only if I can't make the other methods work first.
    Last edited by stubbicatt; 10-18-2015 at 08:57 AM.
    Hate is a poison which one consumes expecting another to die.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Hooker53's Avatar
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    I was the same way on the LLA. In this case, i do t like my Boolit completly covered in ot. That's why I lube mine upside down in my Lyman 450 after I primmer, charge and set the Boolit. I learned to do that with my 38 rim fire #2 Rem rolling block that I changed over to a center fire. I got A mould company to make a brass mould with two diff Wt's of heeled Boolits and with the mould I bought a straight punch that you Act push the Boolit down the size/lube die first. The rim of the brass is what the top punch pushes. With the heel already in the case, the only thing that gets the lube is the groove. Very neat and clean. That cleanliness may depend on you vi tags of die. Some has more holes at diff areas. Luckily mine don't get much lube on the Boolit nose because of the shape of it. If it does, it's an easy clean up.

    Well, I said if it works so well with my 38 roller, why not with my 310 Greener Mag. Luckily enough, my Boolit of my 38 can be the same Dia. As the case so if I size down beyond the case, no harm done. Unlike the Cadet round where the Boolit must be a larger Dia. Then the case, I can't push that into the die as far. Thus, that where I get the idea of taking a Lee Fact crimp die, pressing it apart and Faceing both the crimp part and the die body down. The reason being, my land and grooves are the largest reported here so far. .323. Because of that, I can use a 324 Lyman Lube die and come out right if I don't push down to far into the die.

    After I took as much off the crimp part as I needed, I had to shorten the body enough to keep it from bottoming out on the stroke. The Epilogue to this story, is now I'm ruined on moulds after I bought a brass mould. Using a brass mould for me is like a walk in the park. Ha. I took somewhere around .125 off the FCD but that may vary with yours. After you are sold on your case length, you will need to send me one or two of them to Mic. After its done, the FCD with be set to your CL. Keep us abreast of your work and let me know if I can help with the lathe work.

    lord knows as much as Skeetex, Swamp, Caliloo and all the rest helps me, I can give some back. All it will cost you is the wait!! Ha. Ha.


    Roy
    Hooker53
    Last edited by Hooker53; 10-18-2015 at 02:37 PM. Reason: More words.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master stubbicatt's Avatar
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    After taking the action out of the receiver, and dropping a standard 32-20 round loaded with a heeled bullet into the chamber, I was able to take measurements and the cartridge case needs to be 1.1 inches long. So ordered up a Lee trimmer gizmo yesterday. I think with the modified FCD that this arrangement should work nicely, no need to resize the cases, just decap, recap, charge with powder, thumb seat bullet, slight crimp, and off to the range. Nice and simple.

    Also found some load data at 10 grains of IMR 4227 which is supposed to get the thing shooting to 1200 fps. I reckon I'll start at 9 grains with small pistol primers and work my way up, watching for pressure signs. Maybe try some 2400 powder too, as I have a pretty good stock of that, and it is quite similar to 4227.

    Tried 3.5 grains 231 and it was a neat little pop gun with the .314" boolits we shot through it to get some fire formed cases.

    In essence, I think this is a 310 Greener chamber which will accept the larger case head diameter of 32-20, and the thicker rims.

    Really neat little rifle.
    Last edited by stubbicatt; 10-19-2015 at 12:02 PM.
    Hate is a poison which one consumes expecting another to die.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    My first Cadet, from 35 years ago, was one of those re-chambered to .32-20. Out of ignorance I simply bought a set of .32-20 dies and a .32-20 mould and and happily shot the heck out of it. Accuracy was splendid- I could shoot clay birds offhand set at 100 yards all day long. Ones I have had since then didn't pan out as well, and the one I'm working with now (in original chambering) requires the heeled bullets for best shooting. Sometimes you get lucky, usually you don't with these things.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by stubbicatt View Post
    After looking at the fired cases, they appear to be a nearly straight taper, no shoulder left in them. I sort of figured the majority of the chamber may have been that 310 Greener chamber. I wonder if the chamber reamer the Aussies used to convert them to 32-20 might not have only opened the rim seat and base of the cartridge, but left the rest intact?
    Scroll down on the Single Shot Guns page until you find Hooker53's thread titled "More Cadet Talk" and read of our adventures. It'll take you a couple of days to digest it all, but there's a lot of good intel there about the various .32-20 conversions. Pay special attention to the posts of Bad @$$ Wallace, as he describes the chamber that I (and I think you also) have. I think I've revved the engine a little hotter than most, so if you have inspirations of taking game with it, I might have some useful data there for you as well.

    About the only thing useful mine can do with standard .32-20 ammo is fire form brass - it could probably hold it's own with a Brown Bess musket for accuracy. Once formed, my cases take a custom LBT 130 grain flat nose cast at .3205", and sized to .320", which shoot wonderfully out of the bore that as best I could determine is .3185"
    WWJMBD?

    Buried in molds until covered with mold.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    One common method of crimping the heeled boolit is to drill a properly sized hole in a wire stripping tool allowing a squeeze around the case mouth.
    Also, there are some motorcycle chain spray waxes out there which work great as lubes for heeled boolits. I tried Maxima (which is very much like Alox) but changed to another brand, which of course, I forget. Will check this evening.
    Wurth works great according to a shooter in the UK but don't remember if it is available in the US.
    As for lead, pure lead is easy and cheap from big recyclers in the form of roof flashing and drain pipes. Have found some ingots there too.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Mine shoots minuet of turtle with a heeled boolit over 5.5 gns Unique in 1.1 case.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master stubbicatt's Avatar
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    Thanks fellas. Big slug, I feel sort of foolish now starting this thread, as the one you referenced has a whole lot of information. I guess I need to work on my search skills. Nonetheless, I appreciate the patience of you guys in answering this thread.

    Huvius, I like that idea on drilling a wire crimper/cutter. I'll have to give it a go. Do you suppose I would do well to drill between the pivot bolt and the handles, or between the pivot bolt and the other end of the cutter/crimper? What do you reckon, .002 to .003" crimp sound about right? Drill the hole .003" smaller than heel diameter plus case wall thickness? 'Course I'm not sure I will be able to find a drill bit that size exactly, so it may be a compromise... I have some of that "Chain Wax" that sure smells like Alox to me. It doesn't seem to fling off my "O" ring chain, but it doesn't last very long on my non "O" ring chain. -Tho the leaky gearbox main shaft seems to keep the chain nice and oily! LOL. About every 500 miles when I change primary chain case lubricant, I top off the gearbox. Seems to work.
    Hate is a poison which one consumes expecting another to die.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    .002-.003 crimp would be great if you can drill to that precision.
    You don't need the leverage that putting the hole on the handle side of the pivot would give but would still keep the strippers functional as strippers.
    One thing to try is to shim the plier open a few thou before drilling so you have that much compression to work with. My tool at first had a hole which was roughly case mouth sized and would work fine on some cases and not enough on others. I had to file the entire length of the inside edges to allow it to close a bit more but that could have been obviated if I had drilled them with them open a bit as it would allow me to crimp with some 'feel'.
    Of course, if I had the tools, I could have just drilled another hole with the stripper a bit opened... that would have been easier.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Hooker53's Avatar
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    Stubbi, now your catching on. That sizing trick Huvius is talking about is the same thing I do with a sizing die. I just get a nice groove full of lube on the Boolit doing it the way i doit. I do admit that the depth I push it into the die and the mount of pressure I have on my lube determans how clean my Boolit comes out. That's the reason I just took on a Savage 23-C in 32-20 so I have the lube below the case mouth BUT, it will never shoot as well as my Cadet 310 Greener Mag. Ha. enjoy and keep us posted. Your next step will be finding a peep site for your Cadet and ordering a Lyman 17-A for the front. Ha. Ha.

    Roy

  16. #36
    Boolit Mold
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    I have two 310 cadets. The first had been rechambered to 32-20, and, as expected, its .316 groove diameter did not stabilize a .311 bullet. I contacted LBT (lead bullet technology) who made me a custom mold for a 100 gr gas check bullet. The bullet when sized measured .318 and shoots like a dream. I restocked the rifle in figured walnut and replaced the front sight with a globe sight with a post and replaced the rear sight with an aperture sight on the back of the receiver designed for Martinis.
    My second 310 is still in the 310 caliber. This rifle also shoots well as is with 120 gr heeled bullets which I cast from a brass mold supplied by CBE (Cast Bullet Engineering) in Australia. This is an excellent mold. The bullet falls right out after opening the mold. I use a very soft bullet usually 1:50. I noticed harder bullets lead more. The only leading I have had shooting this bullet soft is when I tried lubing the bullets by shaking them in a container of paste wax. I had read this was a good way to lube heeled bullets. It didn't work well for me. My previous method was done by painting Lee's liquid alox diluted with alcohol to make it thinner into the lube groove. I am still looking for less tedious way of lubing these bullets. Any ideas?
    Interestingly the 100 gr gas check bullet I use in the 32-20 Cadet works well in the rifle still in 310. I do it by sliding the bullet separately into the chamber followed by a charged case with a card wad to hold the powder in place. It's called breech seating. I also use a card wad at the base of the 310 bullet.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check