EOTECH - issues and warnings

[Artful]

http://soldiersystems.net/2015/09/30...s-plus-goings/

USSOCOM Issues Safety of Use Message for EOTech Enhanced Combat Optical Sights – Plus More Goings On

Over the past few weeks, three separate issues have come to our attention regarding EOTech’s line of Holographic Weapon Sights (HWS). While we initially thought they weren’t related as they came up one by one, we realized they were all connected once we had looked into all three. Consequently, we believe they should be presented together, along with the source documentation.

Safety Of Use Message Issued
Although it’s the last one we uncovered, we’ll begin with the most glaring piece of information. On 14 September, the SOF Weapons Program Management Office at NSWC Crane released a Safety of Use Message regarding issues with EOTech’s Enhanced Combat Optical Sights (ECOS), which is how they refer to HWS. This certainly caught our attention as the PMO is responsible for USSOCOM weapons. That message ultimately serves as the linchpin, tying together the other two issues we’ll soon address.

This critical bit of information would have been a stand-alone article, but it added credence to the others and offered coherence to some otherwise inexplicable issues. It also allowed us to concentrate on the facts presented in the various documentation. We will introduce the other issues after you get a chance to read the SOUM, which was obtained by Soldier Systems Daily. The Message has no date-time-group but was transmitted via official email traffic to SOF units on 14 September, 2015 and there are no markings limiting distribution.

Click to view .pdfWhile there is a great deal of information in the SOUM, two glaring issues stick out. The first is the reliability of the HWS in extreme temperatures, referred to as “Thermal Drift”. The PMO has noted a +/- 4 MOA shift at -40 Deg F and 122 Deg F. Second, is the concern over the claim by EOTech that their HWS are parallax free which was the subject of a previous Safety of Use Message from the same office issued 16 March, 2015. In this case they noted between 4 and 6 MOA parallax error depending on temperature conditions. Despite the PMO working with EOTech to rectify the issues, they still have not been resolved.

EOTech Updates User Manuals
EOTech seems to have officially backed off their previous claims regarding operational temperature ranges as well as parallax free attributes. Upon investigation, we noted that EOTech had changed the public specs for their HWS. Specifically, they published new manuals in June, 2015 which are available from the individual product listing pages on their website. Normally, this wouldn’t be that big of an issue by itself, but taken in conjunction with the other two pieces of information and what was removed from the manuals, it becomes so.
For example, they no longer claim that the Optics are “Parallax free”. They’ve also eliminated the temperature range from the manuals which is a pretty important factor for military operations. In the updated manuals, EOTech didn’t alert users to issues at extreme temperatures. Instead, they deleted references to operational temperature range altogether. Interestingly, both of these issues are addressed in the PMO’s Safety of Use Message we referenced earlier.
Although not addressed in this SOUM by the PMO, we also noticed in the latest versions (June 2015) of the user manuals that each click of sight adjustment is now “Approx. 0.5 MOA” rather than the more reassuring “0.5 MOA” cited in older manuals.
Here are some examples of old and new user manuals:
EXPS3 User Manual January 2011

EXPS3 User Manual June 2015

L3 Communications SEC Filing
The last issue we’ll address is actually the first one that came to our attention. In L3 Communications’ most recent 10-Q SEC Quarterly filing of early August for Q2, they mention issues with the HWS. This is a document prepared by EOTech’s parent company L3 Communications, advising their investors of any issues, good or bad, which might affect their investment. While companies obviously put on a public face, SEC filings have weight because they are legal submissions to the government. They must be accurate, regardless of the news.
L3 mentions recognizing “an aggregate liability of $26 million in anticipation of a settlement related to a product specification matter regarding a holographic weapon sight product in the Warrior Systems sector of the Electronic Systems segment.” As we are unaware of any pending civil suits regarding the HWS, the question remains as to whom EOTech might owe such a large sum of money. We must point out that the government has acknowledged issues with the HWS in at least two SOUM from the SOF Weapons PMO. We’d also like to mention that the Quarterly filing talks of possible consequences if the company is implicated in wrongdoing regarding government contracts.

The SEC filing goes on to state that while, “The Company does not currently anticipate that any of these investigations will have a material adverse effect, individually or in the aggregate, on its consolidated financial position, results of operations or cash flows. However, under U.S. Government regulations, an indictment of the Company by a federal grand jury, or an administrative finding against the Company as to its present responsibility to be a U.S. Government contractor or subcontractor, could result in the Company being suspended for a period of time from eligibility for awards of new government contracts or task orders or in a loss of export privileges. A conviction, or an administrative finding against the Company that satisfies the requisite level of seriousness, could result in debarment from contracting with the federal government for a specified term.” They also recognize that, “Foreign government contracts generally include comparable provisions relating to terminations for convenience or default, as well as other procurement clauses relevant to the foreign government.” This can be pretty serious stuff.
The SEC Quarterly filing can be found here.

Putting It All Together
As you can see, the three pieces of information certainly seem related when presented together. In the same quarter, EOTech changed their HWS user manuals and acknowledged in an SEC filing, “aggregate liability of $26 million in anticipation of a settlement related to a product specification matter regarding a holographic weapon sight product…” In the next quarter, USSOCOM issues a Safety Of Use Message that addresses the very information removed from the HWS user manuals.

Data Was Right There In The Open
The documentation was readily available prior to its publication here, to anyone who knew where to look. While EOTech has made no public statements so far, regarding the issues with the performance of their family of HWS, they certainly haven’t hidden them either. To the contrary, we wouldn’t have discovered the issues so easily if they’d tried to hide them. They’ve published new versions of their user manuals and made them available to the public, as well as making an SEC filing which is public record and acknowledges there is an issue afoot. While it would be nice to see EOTech publicly acknowledge the issue, it would be interesting to find out how long they’ve known about it. Regardless, the only thing that remains up in the air, is whether L3 Communications will be required to pay that $26 million, to whom they would pay it, and if there will be any additional stipulations.

Let’s Hope They Fix It
In closing, we suggest that both commercial and military users of EOTech HWS read the SOUM, since EOTech has still not specifically addressed its customers regarding the issues. We hope that they do soon and offer a solution to rectify these issues

FYI

[Larry Gibson]

Having spent a large number of years in SF (yes I was an 18B) and having tested numerous such sights available I found the EoTech to be the best available. The problem stems not from the sight but from the poor instructions on mounting and proper use.

If the sight is mounted on top of the flat top receiver, particularly over the receiver area wear the hot gas is vented out of the gas tube and bolt, of an M16A4 or M4 the heat generated and induced into the receiver during high volume firing exercises (usually nothing more than simple weapons abuse) there will be a change of zero. However I also found the same change of zero with the issue iron sights. It is simply caused by the extreme heat induced into the receiver, particularly where the barrel is held. .....things expand and warp unevenly and the zero is adversely affected.

Also probably 80 - 95% of the Eotech and other optical dot types sights are mounted too far back on the top of the receiver. This puts the eye relief too short inducing parallax and increasing the size of the dot larger than it's specified size (moa in the Eotech). The sight, if mounted on the flat top receiver should be as far forward as possible. Preferably it should be mounted out on the top hand rail in front of the receiver.

Having thoroughly tested numerous of this type of sight I bought my own Eotech for deployment to Iraq. I mounted it on my issue M18A2 over the front hand guard low in front of the handle. The sight was zeroed co-axial with the issue iron sights. With the iron sights zeroed at 300m the dot was placed on top of the front sight using proper sight alignment of the front and rear sights. This gave a 250 m zero with the Eotech. Using the sight I simply either looked through the issue sights or, most often simply looked over the top of the rear sight putting the dot on target and applying a good trigger pull. The result was always a hit.

Using the Eotech for 16 months while deployed it never lost zero, the batteries never went dead and I never had a single heat related problem either from ambient or weapon temperature. That Eotech and it's handle mount reside on my own AR15 (M16 upper with M16A1 barrel) today. It has seen considerable use and has yet to fail or offer any problem.

Many think the military, Marines and Army know everything there is to know about firearms......it just isn't so. I've observed so much misuse and improperly used equipment, particularly Eotechs and other such sights, in the Army and Marines you wouldn't believe it. My experience is almost all such problems are induced by lack of knowledge, poor training, misuse of equipment and poor leadership. The equipment is not used correctly and when it doesn't work to someone's expectation the fault is always the equipment's. The fault is never one of poor training, misuse or lack of proper leadership........

Photo shows my 2 ARs....top is my AR15 with carrying handle with the Eotech properly mounted. Bottom AR also shows a properly mounted scope on a flat top; low and with proper eye relief.

Larry Gibson

Attachment 150683

[LIMPINGJ]

Larry what is the type of mount that you have your EoTech mounted on? Does it attach just to the carry handle or another point?
Thanks
Jim

[MrWolf]

Larry, I have only one AR15 and never really got into them. Thank you for showing the proper mounting as I would not have believed it would be that far forward.

Ron

[osteodoc08]

Interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing.

[Larry Gibson]

The mount is a C.R.T.C. Inc. BC-CAM. If I recall correctly I got it from Brownell's but they may have their own web sight. As you can see the rear does attach to the handle and allows full use of the rear sight. As mentioned when the issue sights are used the EoTech dot is co-axial with the sight picture. During deployment the sight and base were removed from the rifle 7 times for transportation and when I was out of country (rifle was locked in a rack and did not fit with sight on it). When the base was remounted the sight was still perfectly zeroed each and every time. I did add a washer to the bolt/nut/lock washer. It has never come loose unless I loosened it.

I centered the dot in it's elevation adjustment and then used the adjustable front of the base for initial elevation adjustment. I did have to file the top of the top handguard down just a tudge for clearance between it and the mount. Once adjusted I put lock-tite on the screws and tightened them. I also put and idiot mark so if it came loose it could be easily put back in the correct position. The screws have never come loose.

BTW; the EoTech I have uses AA batteries. On deployment I used Ever-Readies and never had a problem. I always changed them out before a mission and the used ones usually showed 2/3 - 3/4 charge and ran my CD player for quite a while. I now use the Lithium AAs and they are lasting forever...........I have 4 additional batteries in the "spare parts" tubes in the LMT butt stock and don't expect the "lights to go out" at all........and even if the dot does go out the irons are right there, good to go w/o any additional movement or adjustment.

Larry Gibson

Attachment 150846Attachment 150847

[CJR]

Larry,

Thanks for your service to our beloved country. It is appreciated by me and many other Americans!

Best regards,

CJR

[offroader69]

Thanks Larry

I am going to remount my EoTech tomorrow and try it out at the range next week. I have a question you may be able to answer. If my EoTech sits in the sun for awhile it will not turn on. Have you come across any issues like that?

Thank you for your service,

Lee

[Lloyd Smale]

Question for you larry. Ive allways been more of an acog guy but do have some aimpoints. Never owned a eotec though mostly because of battery life claims and the fact that you cant leave it on and I don't want to fumble with switches in the dark middle of the night. Question for you is when the batterys go bad do the sights get progressively dimmer so you can tell or is it on all the way or dead?

Having spent a large number of years in SF (yes I was an 18B) and having tested numerous such sights available I found the EoTech to be the best available. The problem stems not from the sight but from the poor instructions on mounting and proper use.

If the sight is mounted on top of the flat top receiver, particularly over the receiver area wear the hot gas is vented out of the gas tube and bolt, of an M16A4 or M4 the heat generated and induced into the receiver during high volume firing exercises (usually nothing more than simple weapons abuse) there will be a change of zero. However I also found the same change of zero with the issue iron sights. It is simply caused by the extreme heat induced into the receiver, particularly where the barrel is held. .....things expand and warp unevenly and the zero is adversely affected.

Also probably 80 - 95% of the Eotech and other optical dot types sights are mounted too far back on the top of the receiver. This puts the eye relief too short inducing parallax and increasing the size of the dot larger than it's specified size (moa in the Eotech). The sight, if mounted on the flat top receiver should be as far forward as possible. Preferably it should be mounted out on the top hand rail in front of the receiver.

Having thoroughly tested numerous of this type of sight I bought my own Eotech for deployment to Iraq. I mounted it on my issue M18A2 over the front hand guard low in front of the handle. The sight was zeroed co-axial with the issue iron sights. With the iron sights zeroed at 300m the dot was placed on top of the front sight using proper sight alignment of the front and rear sights. This gave a 250 m zero with the Eotech. Using the sight I simply either looked through the issue sights or, most often simply looked over the top of the rear sight putting the dot on target and applying a good trigger pull. The result was always a hit.

Using the Eotech for 16 months while deployed it never lost zero, the batteries never went dead and I never had a single heat related problem either from ambient or weapon temperature. That Eotech and it's handle mount reside on my own AR15 (M16 upper with M16A1 barrel) today. It has seen considerable use and has yet to fail or offer any problem.

Many think the military, Marines and Army know everything there is to know about firearms......it just isn't so. I've observed so much misuse and improperly used equipment, particularly Eotechs and other such sights, in the Army and Marines you wouldn't believe it. My experience is almost all such problems are induced by lack of knowledge, poor training, misuse of equipment and poor leadership. The equipment is not used correctly and when it doesn't work to someone's expectation the fault is always the equipment's. The fault is never one of poor training, misuse or lack of proper leadership........

Photo shows my 2 ARs....top is my AR15 with carrying handle with the Eotech properly mounted. Bottom AR also shows a properly mounted scope on a flat top; low and with proper eye relief.

Larry Gibson

Attachment 150683

[LIMPINGJ]

Just got home from being away at some school for work and want to say thanks to Larry for the pics and information on his mount.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks Larry

I am going to remount my EoTech tomorrow and try it out at the range next week. I have a question you may be able to answer. If my EoTech sits in the sun for awhile it will not turn on. Have you come across any issues like that?

Thank you for your service,

Lee

Not at all. However, bright sunlight causes the reticle to appear dimmer and in really bright sunlight can give the appearance it is not turned on. When that happens you might turn on and increase the brightness level and see if the reticle appears.

Larry Gibson

[offroader69]

Thank Larry,

I will try to increase the brightness even though I do not see the reticle when I turn it on.

Lee

[Larry Gibson]

Question for you larry. Ive allways been more of an acog guy but do have some aimpoints. Never owned a eotec though mostly because of battery life claims and the fact that you cant leave it on and I don't want to fumble with switches in the dark middle of the night. Question for you is when the batterys go bad do the sights get progressively dimmer so you can tell or is it on all the way or dead?

Can't answer that question Lloyd because I've never run the batteries down. Worse case was the batteries had lost about half their life. I always changed them out before a mission and never had a problem with batteries. Now with the AA lithium batteries I've no idea how long the battery life will be. The unit will turn itself off after 4 or 8 hours depending on which button you turn it on with. I always turned it on with the right button which was good for 8 hours but during longer missions would turn it off and on so I didn't have a problem with it turning off on me. I'll go find the instruction manual and see what it says and get back to you here.

Anyways my EoTech is mounted co-axial with the irons sights so if there is no dot I automatically just use the irons as they are right there......never had it happen but that's the plan........

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

that would scare me larry. I know a guy doesn't allways think straight under pressure and can even forget to change the batterys. I don't know if I could feel comfortable with a sight that turns off automatically. What if it turned off during the worse part of a fire fight? I talked to the sales manager of vortex. I told him there strikefires were a great product for the money and they are. He asked me if I had one recommendation for them to change what would it be? I told him to get rid of the auto off so it wouldn't turn off in a fire fight and so that I could leave my bedroom gun with the sight turned on so I didn't have fool with switches in the middle of the night under pressure of an intruder. They still do it so I guess he didn't listen. Id personaly rather put batterys in it once a month if that is nessisary then have it turn off. Its why I like the aimpoints. over 3 years of battery life left on and they don't just turn off. they battery starts to get dimmer with time and you find you have to turn up the rheostat. When I have to do that I just change them. Its also why I REALLY like acogs. There almost as fast much more precise for long range and don't even have a battery! Only down side to them is the cost. I didn't serve when any of these were used. We had open sights and that's it. So I don't really know how they work out in combat but if I was told I had to go into a fire fight tomorrow id probably have an acog on my gun.

[Larry Gibson]

What if it turned off during the worse part of a fire fight?

Lloyd, that's why I learned a long time ago to keep it simple. In that scenario I keep on shooting because I'm looking through the issue sights anyway. With the flip up rear sight in the handle on an 'A2, 'A4, M4 or my M16 upper there are 2 apertures; the standard one for BS zero and a large ghost ring one for 100m and under. When using the EoTech (always) I had the large ghost ring aperture up and unless it was extremely close quarters (>15M) I was always looking through or slightly over the rear aperture. As I've said if there is no dot when the rifle comes up it is automatic to transition to the front post which is right there anyway and use the issue sights as I've always done. At extremely close range I use " point shoulder" looking over the top of the sights anyway. I have become over the years extremely proficient at point shoulder not using the sights at close range. Although with the EoTech I simply put the dot on target while looking over the sights......it is just as fast and has proven in a lot of CQC drills (5 - 25m) to be more accurate.

I'm not trying to sell the EoTech to anyone but let me say this; soldiers (SF to some real REMFs) I have trained with a properly set up EoTech on their M16 or M4 have always done much better both in quickness of engagement and accuracy as compared to issue iron sights of any of the other dot or optical sights. The fears you (and many others) have proffered have been disproven over the last 15 years informally and formally in tests and in combat. The key is to properly mount and zero the sight and then incorporate it's function into your personal weapon craft training.

It takes nothing to turn the EoTech on. During non use while on a mission (that's really most of the time as you'll carry the weapon 99.9999999999999% of the time more often than actually using it. Soldiers should often physically and visually check the safety (should come "natural" after a while) of the weapon and the sight status. That's with issue sights also. You have no many times how many times I've found safeties off and weeds, leaves, bugs, mud, etc. on soldiers sights when on missions. With REMFs you will find rags, duct tape and even complete gun cases covering their weapons and/or sights while on missions so they won't have to clean them when they get back to camp......point is if you carry a weapon in harms way or are expecting it might come your way you should perform what we called "pre-execution" checks constantly on all your equipment, particularly firearms. Simply a matter of training and leadership.

I do understand your concern about at night when sleeping. However, I seldom sleep more than 8 hours at a stretch so I suppose I could turn the EoTech on while I'm sleeping.

Consider this; assuming the sight in question is on a rifle(?) and you keep it handy in the bedroom for SP. If you are awakened and have time to pick up the rifle w/o having to immediately go into use you should also have time to take the safety off and chamber a round (unless you keep one chambered?) and simply press one of the buttons, it's a simple matter of weapon craft training. Now The sight will be on for 4 or 8 hours before shutting off. The situation should be resolved long before that. If the intruder is in the bedroom and you still manage to get the rifle and put it in use it is doubtful the sights will be used in the dark at such close quarters. Hopefully you make sure it's an intruder and not a family member in the bedroom. If the intruder is not in the bedroom and you have time to get the rifle and maneuver at all with it you have time to check the safety, check to ensure it is loaded and to turn on the sight......and be reaching for a phone to call 911. All of which can be reflex, trained reactions that can occur very quickly, even under considerable stress.

Not trying to change your mind just pointing out facts about what really happens under stress; we actually will do as trained (good or bad). If you are comfortable with those sights that don't require being turned on then by all means use one of them. They are all good sights and functional. Some do have other draw backs though. I simply found through extensive testing the EoTech was the best overall for use from 0 to 300m and am simply mentioning those reasons in this thread.

Larry Gibson

BTW; I do really like the ACOG also but as you say it's "almost as fast" at closer ranges. Since most of my concern with the AR is "closer ranges" I don't like to settle for "almost". Considering your biggest concern/fear is the intruder scenario in the bedroom are you really wanting to settle for "almost"? Something perhaps to think about?

[2wheelDuke]

Question for you larry. Ive allways been more of an acog guy but do have some aimpoints. Never owned a eotec though mostly because of battery life claims and the fact that you cant leave it on and I don't want to fumble with switches in the dark middle of the night. Question for you is when the batterys go bad do the sights get progressively dimmer so you can tell or is it on all the way or dead?

The reticle blinks on an EOtech when the battery is low.

[Lloyd Smale]

you made some good points. I like your "leave your flip ups UP. That's good advice. I think the theres two main points to make for me. First your talking mostly combat and I can see your points in that. If your going out on patrol its easy to turn on a sight first. If you fighting in daylight its easy to use a flip up open sight. Its also easy to change your batterys even every day. But heres my points. First, not everyone has combat experience and even knows how they will react under the stress of a armed home invasion. Im sure a few of the walter mittys here would freeze right up period, others would be shaking like a leaf and would have problems with switches ect. You have a big advantage over most. I don't get shook much but still like the kiss (keep it simple @@@head) approach. With my acogs and aimpoints I have one less thing to think about. I also am not going to rack my slide when trouble is here. For one that gives away your location and two, its just another thing to remember. My guns sit there with the chambers loaded and the safety on. Advantage I have is theres no kids here anymore to worry about. Just the wife and I. Some will argue with me on my habbit but ANY gun that's not locked in the safe in this house is loaded. I don't want to grab something if the need arrises and have to wonder if its loaded or if theres one in the chamber. THERE IS.

Im not trying to beat heads with you. You made good points and most come from real world combat experience which I respect to no end. I also wont argue that theres something faster then an eotech because nothing is that ive tried. But again in a home invasion it might be a mistake but im going to want to make sure of my target and make sure it needs killing and is not some 12 year old kid trying to steal quarters off the table. That thinking might get me killed but I think that would be better then living with the alternative. Again I have no children to protect so that leaves me that option. So the split second difference between the eotech and the aimpoint and the two split second difference between it and a acog aren't a big concern to me. I think the ease of operation under stress means more to me. Cool thing too about an acog is the ones I have on my ar10 and beo can be used for deer hunting and the one I have on one of my ar15s makes it a decent coyote gun and they get a heck of a lot more use at stuff like that then they do at killing people in my house

[Larry Gibson]

Lloyd

Good discussion and I don't perceive we're "beating heads" at all. Using what you have confidence in and are comfortable with it's use is very important in a stress situation. I haven't been "on patrol" for almost 10 years now and certainly hope my days of that are over. Gee, it's been that long! Time flies as they say. My EoTech is still very comfortable for me to use and the old ingrained habits, while not as sharp nor quick as they used to be, are still there. It serves my needs well and as with the theme of Artful's post I've not had any of the problems mentioned in the article he posted starting this thread. When the EoTechs were correctly mounted I never saw any of the problems mentioned either.

Have to agree ACOGs are quite spendy and certainly are better for more precise shooting. However I'm saving my pennies for a NightForce or Schmitt & Bender for even more "precise" shooting. Now if you want to send me a real ACOG to test out for some years I'd be glad to thoroughly wring it out for you

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Mike

Excellent observations. We did extensive testing of the Aimpoint vs the EoTech in entry/QCB because we'd been informed by Fort Bragg and 1st SFGA that the Aimpoint was the better because it was "faster". What we found was if the EoTech was improperly mounted at the rear of the FT receiver (M4A1s and M16A4s) the Aimpoint was indeed "faster".....not by much but enough. However, if the EoTech was mounted forwards as it should be (Particularly forward of the handle on M16A1s and M16A2s) so the dot was simply brought onto target the same as with the Aimpoint there was no difference in speed of engagement or accuracy. The EoTech, because of it's 1 moa dot, proved to be the most accurate of all dot sights (the ACOG has a reticle and magnification). When zeroed at 300m on either the M4 or the M16, particularly if forward of the receiver so there was a true 1 moa dot and no parallax, the EoTech proved superior from 100 to 300 meters. On my M16 or my then M16A2 I could easily engage E targets at 500m with the EoTech. That was most often a waste of ammunition with the Aimpoint or other dot sights with their 3 - 6 moa size dots. As you say "each have their applied uses". I found for my own "uses" the EoTech did/does the job.

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

Larry I will admit that even 300 is hard to shoot precisely for me with an aimpoint. I guess I fall into the category probably most of America does with its ars. I use it for home protection but use it a heck of a lot more as a hunting tool. Anymore at my house theres two types of ars. Well actually 3 as I have one with open sights. I have two with aimpoints that are my home defense guns. I have two in 5.56 I use as varmit/general hunting/target guns they both wear acogs. My beo is a pure hunting gun and wears a 1x4 trij accupoint. The ar10 is kind of tough one. Its wore an acog, an aimpoint, an acog and it now has a 4x12 leupold on it. To me its about to heavy to fool with for self defense or even whitetail hunting even with its 16 inch barrel so about all I do with it is bust rocks way out in the field. I would have dumped it years ago if it weren't so da#### accurate. I also have a 762x39 bushmaster that's kind of the bastard child. It isn't reliable enough to trust for home defense, its not flat shooting enough to play with at long distance. It shoots pretty well, around moa with good loads and does about 2 inch with wolf. That's where I found its best use. I take it to camp to plink with. I don't have to worry about picking up brass or digging in the tall grass for it. When all the ammo shortage were in full swing I was sitting on 10 cases of wolf so I dug into that instead of my reloadable stuff. It wears a vortex strikefire as does my ar22. Like I said im not a cheerleader for auto shut off but for 200 bucks there a darned good sight. Probably all ill buy anymore as being retired I don't have a grand or more for a acog or even the 600 an aimpoint or eotech costs. Ill never part with the good sights I have but even if eotech redesigned it so that I had not a single complaint I couldn't afford one anyway