Long winded thoughts on sights and reloading cast boolits for M38 Carcano.

[Hang Fire]

Couple years ago picked up a prebubbaed M38 Carcano in 7.35x51. With my old eyes, found the front sight atrocious, so replaced with a Mosin Nagant 91/30 sight and obtained a much improved sight picture. The dovetail for the M38 is larger that the 91/30 one, so took more than a little jury rigging to fit. One thing about the entire M38 front sight, no permanent damage is done, as it is easily replaced by just moving blade out of dovetail which exposes a screw, which when removed, the entire unit is simple to drift off and another one installed.

I am primarily a cast boolit shooter, so ordered out 100 pcs of 7.35x51 Privi Partizan brass from Graf’s, they may claim length is 51mm, but found it to be 52mm. Needed trimming, but no trimmer, so as a fix, turned down a Lee 7.62x51 trimmer shaft a few thou to fit the neck ID of 7.35x51 and it worked fine for the job.

I came across a Lyman 300136 mold for the gas checked 7.35x51 and immediately encountered a problem. The gas check shank OD measures .250” for the boolit and the 30 caliber gas check is made for a .275” OD shank. I read about annealing GC and the use of instant glue, but found all such wanting. Also read about the magic of using sized down .308” boolits, using different .308” boolits, found this all but wiped out the lube grooves and the larger boolit nose would not engrave into rifling, but seated the boolits too deep (I don’t care for GC and lube grooves seated deeper than neck/shoulder junction) into case.

Then tried the .284” OD 7mm GC, which, is made for a .250” OD GC shank, but once installed, the .284” OD remained true and was a smaller diameter than boolit bands, this exposes the rear band outer edges to hot gases. I have also read numerous stories about the 7mm GC use for 7.35x51 causing key holing. With that said, will try the 7mm GC with starting loads of lower pressures and velocities, note the results, if good, will increase pressures and velocities. If results are a failure, I have a .275” end mill to open up GC shank for 30 caliber GC, but a bit reluctant to mess with a rather hard to find and expensive mold. Yes, I know I can order a custom mold to any desired dimensions, but OTOH, why have a worthless mold which doesn’t work?

Input and critique welcome from others.

[runfiverun]

you might could also talk to Pat Marlin about making you an 'off sized' gas check maker that fits the shank.
other than that I'd open the shank to take normal 30 cal checks.

except. yeah a but.

I'd think real careful about what will happen to the over sized check when it's sized down, and plan a course of action if this/that happens.

[Hang Fire]

Good points. I have been in communication with Pat. IMO, fitting the shank diameter would present no problem, but the thickness of the material to make the gas checks might, as it would have to be quite thick.

[Hang Fire]

Bingo, little thinking outside the box made for a very simple but effective solution for the GC problem. Checked a 6.5mm GC, inside ID was .250” and OD was .275”, looking good. Installed the 6.5mm GC, followed with the .30 GC over that one, It worked like a breeze to seat both GCs tight through die in the lubrisizer. Ran several and miked all, the GCs and bands all checked out at .302” OD.

So no physical change to mold was required, just have to use a 6.5mm and the .30 gas checks, or two GCs instead of one.

Now to check for accuracy and as runfiverun’s tagline reads, “it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled”.

[leadman]

If you fill the lube grooves before sizing down an oversized boo lit it helps to maintain the grooves. Coating with Hi-Tek lube also maintains the lube grooves with no distortion at all. The boolit just grows in length.
A case filler like poly-fil of Grex helps seal the bore and reduce or eliminates leading. I use poly-fill when I shoot a .446" boolit in the barrel of my 71 Mauser that measures .458". Good enough to shoot 3" groups at 100 yards when I am having a good day.

[Hang Fire]

I have had fair luck with reducing boolit diameter with lube filled grooves, but for the 300136, it does not hold true for me.

[Buckshot]

............I have a M38 Carcano and I also have one of those Lyman 300136 moulds. However sizing down .308" cast boolits works much better for me. I lube/size to .308" in a Lyman die and then squirt them up through a Lee type .300" or .301" (.301" works best for me) size die. If you use a Boolit like the Lee C308-113-FN or the C308-120-R you don't have to worry about the nose OD. You can use the Lee C308-150-F but might have to size the nose down some. I only have the one Carcano, but after having done considerable reading about the M38's when I got mine it seemed fairly common to hear of their tight chambers.

..............Buckshot

[Hang Fire]

Buckshot, I have seen your targets shot with the M38 7.35x51 and was impressed, so there is little doubt your sized down .308" boolits worked just fine.

I had a couple of 7mm lubrisizer dies, in the mini Chinese lathe drilled one out with 19/64" (.2969") bit, (die was not that hard, just took it easy and kept light oil lubed at best speed) sawed down center of 1/4" round bar stock to accept different grits of abrasive paper. Inserted it in tool holder on center and honed out to .302" ID.

As an aside, many sell the Chinese mini machines short, but with correct tooling, some changes and adjustments, they are more than capable of doing light and accurate machining. I have the mini lathe and mini mill, and for only a few hundred bucks I have been very satisfied with them. http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.c...hine_shop.html

[Buckshot]

...............Looks like you're having fun, and yes those mini lathes & mills are capable of good work within their envelope. The Home Shop Machinist magazine has been running articles each issue for awhile now on improvements to the lathe. You should make yourself a Lee type push through die to size down lube-sized (.308") cast slugs to .301". The bore of my M38 is .292" x .300". Resizing via pushing through is almost effortless. I checked my notebook on the M38 and didn't realize I'd done that much reloading/shooting with it. Most of it 10-11 years ago . Maybe I should post some of it here.

...............Buckshot

[Hang Fire]

I checked my notebook on the M38 and didn't realize I'd done that much reloading/shooting with it. Most of it 10-11 years ago .

Maybe I should post some of it here.


...............Buckshot

I had an old .38 Special aluminum decapping die body, opened it up to accept lubrisizer dies, made a push through mandrel for the .302" die and used it in Lee Classic Cast SS press to resize some .308" boolits. I also use the aluminum die body and other lubrisizer dies for nose first applications.

I would be very interested in reading your notes and experiences with the m38. Not long ago I found some 7.35x51 milsurp cartridges dated 1939, and was very surprised at the accuracy and consistency for the rifle and ammo. As I earlier stated, the Carcano rifles have gotten an unwarranted bad rap.

I look at the rear sight and think it almost begs to have a scout scope installed there.

[Buckshot]

Here's some of the 7.35 Carcano data I'd generated over time. I'll just post the loads without mention of group size:

11/02 Lyman 301136

8.0 Red Dot
17.0 2400
18.0 SR4759
21.0 Surplus IMR 4198 (more like IMR3031)

7-04 Lyman 301136

12.0 Unique
10.0 Red Dot
20.0 SR4759
18.0 2400
22.0 H4198

Lee C309-150-F Tumble lubed, then GC seated and sized (push through) .301".

8.0 Red Dot, 1282 fps
25.0 IMR 4227, 2235 fps
17.0 2400, 1820 fps
12.0 SR7625, 1550.0 fps
23.0 H4498, 2000 fps

Lee C309-160-R

25.0 H4227, 2240 fps
23.0 Surp IMR 4198, 1530 fps
20.0 Surp SR4759 1925 fps
25.0 IMR4227 2214 fps
12.0 Unique 1615 fps
23.0 H4198 2009 fps
17.0 2400 1824 fps
12.0 SR7625 1583 fps
32.0 Surp 4895 2072 fps
33.0 IMR3031 2285 fps

Lyman 311291 173 grs

20.0 IMR 4227 1810 fps
30.0 Surp IMR 4895 1975 fps
30.0 IMR 4064 2137 fps
30.0 Surp WC852 (old slow lot) 2165 fps

Hornady 123gr SPFB

35.7 Surp IMR4895 2043 fps
32.9 IMR 3031 2361 fps
47.0 Surp WC852 (old slow lot) 2367fps
36.0 Surp WC846 2303 fps
34.5 IMR 4320 2261

Mostly all the .308" boolits were Lube-Sized in a Lyman .308" Die (with GC's seated), and then sent up through a .301" Lee type die I'd made.

.....................Buckshot

[Hang Fire]

Many thanks Buckshot, that information is great, I will be putting it to use. Also will be giving the sizing down of .308" to .302" another hard look to see where I went astray when tried before.

One thing not sure of, you list a Lyman 301136 bullet, I have been unable to find any information on that Lyman Mold? Was 301136 a typo, (which I am guilty of all too often) or was there such a mold?

Again, thx for posting the info.

[swheeler]

30.0 Surp WC852 (old slow lot) 12650 fps!! Ric you got those 311291's a smokin'

[Buckshot]

..............Yes Lyman made a 300136 mould for the M38 Carcano. It is/was a GC design but the GC shank is too small to hold a 30 cal GC securely. Next best is to use regular 30 cal (.308") boolits, re-sized to suit, along with the GC!
.

...................Buckshot

[swheeler]

Much better

[Hang Fire]

..............Yes Lyman made a 301136 mould for the M38 Carcano. It is/was a GC design but the GC shank is too small to hold a 30 cal GC securely. Next best is to use regular 30 cal (.308") boolits, re-sized to suit, along with the GC!
.

...................Buckshot

I have the 150 grain Lyman 300136 mold they made for the 7.35x51. The .250" GC shank is also too small for .308" GC. As posted earlier, what I came up with is to first put a 6.5 GC (GC shank same as 300136) inside a .308" GC, then run through the lubrisizer, crimping both on shank with ease. Tried some and accuracy was good, so will be trying different powders and loads to find most accurate. They impacted in dirt and were recovered with gas checks still crimped in place.

Will be trying the sized down .308" boolits. will do it through 3 sizing dies, lube and install GC in .308", followed by .305", and .302" dies. If nose on some need to be sized down , will first try a .284" sizing die for such.

[Buckshot]

Much better

.............You're awfully picky!

..............Buckshot

[Buckshot]

Many thanks Buckshot, that information is great, I will be putting it to use. Also will be giving the sizing down of .308" to .302" another hard look to see where I went astray when tried before.

One thing not sure of, you list a Lyman 301136 bullet, I have been unable to find any information on that Lyman Mold? Was 301136 a typo, (which I am guilty of all too often) or was there such a mold?

Again, thx for posting the info.

...............Yes, the mould is 300136.

..............Buckshot

[swheeler]

.............You're awfully picky!

..............Buckshot

You ought to see some of the numbers I've found in reloading manuals! And they're proof read before publishing 358 Winchester with 200 gr bullet, 51 grs 4320, 3656FPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no wonder I like 4320

[swheeler]

.............You're awfully picky!

..............Buckshot

Ric it is just a respect thing, I actually read what is posted before I reply, something that seems lacking too much anymore on these internet sites.