91/30 questions again

[Eddie2002]

I've some questions about a Mosin 91/30, it's nothing special just a '42 standard refurbed Izhevk with a counterbore. Picked it up about six months ago at a show and have been trying to get to hit paper at 50 yds with either J words bullets or a light weight 100 grain cast plinker.
Here's my problem, I've scrubbed the bore with a good bronze brush and plenty of Hoppe's #9 till the patches came out clean but after my last trip to the range I wet patched the bore with Hoppe's and forgot to dry patch it. Well when I finally used a dry patch it came out really green. Looks like there is a lot of copper fouling in the bore. Been wet patching and then dry patching after 8 hours or so all week and still am getting a lot of copper fouling out each time.
A buddy told me that the copper fouling isn't that big a deal, all it does is fill in the rough spots in the bore. I think the rifle will shoot better when the fouling is cleaned out. Who's right?
I have no problem working on the bore till clean, it might take a few hundred patches, a few brushes and a couple of months. It's just is I would hate to spend all that time working on the bore and end up with something that shoots worst and have to hear about it from my shooting buddy for the rest of my life.
Also any tips on how to get the copper out beside scrubbing and patching?

Thanks

[LAGS]

Plug the chamber end of your Barrel and fill the barrel up with straight Ammonia.
Let it sit over night, then dump it out.
I bet it is a Blue color if you have copper in the bore.
then clean the bore with patches and maybe a stainless bore brush.
If the patches are still Green or Blue, then repeat the process for a couple of nights untill they come out clean.
Now, remember, the Brass Jag or bronze brush will react with the ammonia too.
So take that into account, or use only plastic or other non Brass, Bronze or Copper stuff to clean your barrel with the ammonia present.

[Adam Helmer]

Eddie2002,

I suggest you STOP brushing and save patches and take another route. I would use an 8mm or larger brush with JB Bore Paste to see what is in the bore. I would then use Butches' Bore Shine on patches to lift out the copper. You will be done within a half hour.

Adam

[Eddie2002]

Lags, thanks, I have a nylon jag and patch the bore clean after brushing, just think it is a lot of copper fouling. I'll try some ammonia with a plugged bore next.

Adam, I'll track down a 8mm bore brush, been using some real stiff .308 bronze brushes which has worked on my other milsurp rifles up to now. Need to get some bore paste and bore shine.

I'll keep working on it, can't expect to clean years of fouling in just a few weeks.

[nagantguy]

An 8mm brush and some never dull polish swabs might be in order.

[Scharfschuetze]

Let me add some to what's been noted above:

The chemical solution is an ammonia based solvent such as Sweets 7.62 solvent. With any ammonia based solvent, you can expect it to also dissolve your brass or bronze brushes and brass bore jags. Let the solvent soak for a while to get maximum dissolution from each treatment. Wood alcohol will neutralize the ammonia when you are done.

For a mechanical solution, then JB's Bore Paste or Witch's Brew are good choices. I use a Parker Hale style jag with this approach to maximize patch and abrasive contact with the bore.

With all of your vigorous brushing, be sure to use a good rod guide for your cleaning rod so that you don't further wear your throat or crown depending on which end you are scrubbing from.

[30calflash]

Some good advice here, just a couple thoughts.

I'm not big on the stainless brushes as they can scratch the bore in a worse case scenario. They work well for some folks.

When I have one that doesn't clean up after a week of wetting the bore with #9 and letting it sit muzzle down on a paper overnight, I'll dry it and go to the range and fire a few jacketed rounds there. Clean while the bore is still warm, it seems to clean better and quicker that way.

[LAGS]

If you want a Warm or Hot Bore to help get out Cosmoline or such, just heat the barrel up with a Heat gun, or even a Propane torch.
Just dont over do it with the Torch.
That way you dont have to run to the range and Schlep all your cleaning stuff with you.

[Motor]

Use a copper removing solvent. Patch Out / Wipe Out is good stuff and won't gag you like Sweets 7.62 although I like both of them. Don't use any bronze brushes or jags with copper removing solvents they will eat them and give you false indication of fouling.

With years of build up in many Mosin Nagants I suggest you alternate between regular cleaning solvent and copper removing solvent.

Your friend is right but these old rifles have too much build up in them. It's best to clean them out then basically lay in a fresh layer. Then repeat when necessary.

Motor

[Petrol & Powder]

I think most of us have struggled to clean up an old military rifle from time to time. It has been my experience that once you get them clean they are a lot easier to keep clean.
Good advice in the previous posts. Plugging the barrel and soaking with a high concentration of ammonia is a good first step. The ammonia that will attack the copper in the bore will of course attack the same copper in your cleaning rod and bronze brushes; so keep that in mind because it can give a false impression that there is still copper in the bore when what you are actually seeing is the copper from the brush.

I'm not a fan of stainless brushes in rifled barrels. JB bore paste is an option but I wouldn't start with that. I think it would be more effective as a follow up after the ammonia solution is removed from the bore. I totally agree with Scharfschuetze that JB bore paste should be used with a patch and a Parker Hale style jag not a brush. There is little advantage to using a brush with JB bore paste.

Part of the process is the willingness to work on a barrel over time. Attempting to remove years of copper fouling in one session is almost impossible. You're far better off approaching the project as a series of evolutions that build on the session before.

One last comment and I'll shut up, After soaking the bore with ammonia, cleaning the ammonia out and brushing the bore; I would follow up using a jag with JB bore paste. When that step was done I would liberally coat the bore with Kroil (or kerosene and ATF) and let it sit for several days. I've had far better luck ending with Kroil than with Hoppes #9.

[Eddie2002]

Great stuff, thanks. I'll soak it with ammonia overnight, clean it to remove any residual ammonia then give it a brushing. Repeat as needed with some liberal Hoppe's #9 as a followup. I'm using an aluminum cleaning rod and a nylon jag, the only thing that will take a beating will be the brushes unless I use a stainless spring one. It took time to crud it up, it will take time to get it clean. Wonder what it will slug out at when done.

[LAGS]

I bet the barrel will slug out to your bore size.
Tell me if I am wrong ?

[Eddie2002]

Lags, yup it will slug out to the bore size, It is what it is, no doubts about it.

[Geezer in NH]

I second the Sweet's 7.62 recommendation it is great stuff but I would not soak overnight with it or ammonia. Soak 20 minutes then wipe, not done? use some wd-40 and start again in a day or so.

That saying Sweet's has always worked the same day for me. Cleaning guns in my shop to resell.

[Motor]

True. Sweet's does not recommend leaving it in the bore for longer periods of time.

You can leave Patch Out - Wipe Out in over night.

You should always oil a bore after using any ammonia containing bore solvent. I usually patch out with Hoppes #9, dry patch then oil after using copper removing solvents.

Motor

[725]

Household ammonia is 3% solution. Janitorial strength ammonia is 10% solution (You can get it at True Value, but you might have to ask for it). I use it and let it set for 5 or 10 minutes, and repeat as needed. I just don't let it set long and afterwards make sure it's cleaned away and the barrel reoiled. Works great.

[Eddie2002]

Just got home from a weekend trip and have some household ammonia in the barrel. Couldn't find a cork to fit so ended up grabbing a fired steel 54r case which I covered with some resizing lube and chambered it. The steel case was an airtight fit and didn't leak when I poured the ammonia down the bore. Going to give it about 8 hours and then give the bore a good scrubbing just to see what happened.

[Scharfschuetze]

The US Military used an ammonia solution back in the cupro-nickel days. While it worked very well most of the time, every now and then if any O2 was present, it would ruin a barrel completely. Of course the army can rebarrel without any trouble; but we can't, so be careful filling up a barrel and letting it sit too long. As I posted earlier, wood alcohol is supposed to neutralize ammonia.

[Eddie2002]

Dumped the used ammonia into a water bottle after a 6 hour sit. It was pretty funky with a medium green color and lots of crud. Sprayed everything down with water then WD40 and then patched the bore dry. Ran a stainless steel spring type bore brush through it a few times and pulled a lot more crud out with patches. Looks like it is starting to clean up. I'm letting it sit overnight after patching with Hoppes to see if there is any more copper left. Can't rush it

[LAGS]

I dont think the Turbo brushes reach all the way into the corners of your lands and grooves.
I would opt for a regular bore brush , preferably Stainless until you feel all the copper is out.
But you can use a Bronze brush, just not with the Ammonia.
And I would suggest that you skip using WD-40 to clean the barrel.
If you want to Spray Clean the bore, try spray Carborator cleaner.
The is more of a solvent and will cut thru some of the carbon and stuff in the barrel without adding oil back in.
It also dries up moisture.
Then you can use the proper Oil.