I have some Mihec 180's with the large hp poured from my 30/1 mix I used for my Gibbs ML loaded to the max load in my manual in my Sp101. Accurate load at 25yds. No man has come forward to test it's "man-stopping" properties.
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I have some Mihec 180's with the large hp poured from my 30/1 mix I used for my Gibbs ML loaded to the max load in my manual in my Sp101. Accurate load at 25yds. No man has come forward to test it's "man-stopping" properties.
It is this general reluctance to become test media that we utilize to our advantage by carrying sideiron. An armed society is a polite society--Heinlein nailed it.Originally Posted by Bagdadjoe
No man has come forward to test it's "man-stopping" properties.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
Where is Jello Man when we really need him?
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Petrol and Powder, you didn't read my response very closely?
The difference in velocity with powder orientation isn't between "750 fps or 753.09312" fps. It's more like the difference between 860 and 750 fps when a SWC is used. For that reason my findings have more significance than your apparent(?) mischaracterization of my results. If you want to address my point, you might want to take issue with what I actually printed, not what you wish to substitute.
If I can reduce said variation with bullet selection, and I can, I will.
I got what you were saying, my WC are extremely consistent. There is a reason for that, plus with less powder for high enough pressure the muzzle blast and barrel rise are minimized. The only draw backs is reloads under stress. For reloads I do go with SWC.
No argument on the reloads.....but the ones in the gun would be WC's if I was limited to a solid bullet.
Wow, you totally missed that one. The arbitrary values I substituted, complete with five places to the right of the decimal and less than 4 fps apart, where so far from the numbers you posted and so obviously comical that I thought you would catch the sarcasm. Apparently others did but I'll take the blame for failing to post those numbers in the correctly colored sarcasm font.
My point was the variation in velocity due to the position of the powder in the casing is probably not going to weigh heavily on my mind at that point in time. I acknowledge that it is wise to attempt to place the odds as much in your favor as possible. It has long been known that powder position can affect accuracy when we're trying to make little tiny groups in paper with relatively light loads of powder in relatively large cases. I'm skeptical that mere powder position would account for a 110 fps variation if the charge weights were actually similar and appropriately large enough for a self defense cartridge.
I've spent considerable time proving that such variations are common in short barrelled 38's using SWC's. By all means find out for yourself and you won't have to disbelieve it.
On the reloads, the fastest are with TC nosed bullets and Safariland speedloaders for DA guns. The Safariland speedloaders hold the ctgs. MUCH more securely and rigidly than the HKS types, and this aids getting the gun reloades ASAP, and the difference can be pretty significant. Also, if you learn to pick them out of the pouch with thumb and middle finger on opposing sides, between two rounds, and also to hold the cylinder with the left hand with the thumb on one of the grooves on the cylinder, you can pretty quickly learn to line them up enough, with TC nosed bullets, that reloads are very much more quick than with any other speedloader or technique. Learn this, and reloads are darned quick, and probably as fast as one with mags in an autoloader. Those Safariland actually give the replacement rounds a little "shove" as one presses the center pin on the rod of the cylinder, seating them more fully, reliably, and more quickly. With practice, it's amazing how fast reloads can be for a revolver, but ONLY (at least as far as I've seen) with the Safariland speedloaders and TC bullets. Full WC's and SWC's tend to hang up on the shoulder of the bullets, and slow things down.
This is why I'm planning to get the NOE 160 gr. WFN bullet for my Colt DS. Same load for carry and reloads, and quick restuffing of the cylinders. That's the best .38 snubbies have to offer, but as always, placement is the key, even with the best of bullets and guns. That's what I've settled on, anyway.
Here are teo examples from my experience over a F! Chrony shot the same day using the Lyman 358477 bullet in my Uberti El Patron with a 5.5 inch barrel:
Revolver held down then slowly raised and fired: 877 fps using 5.4 gr of Unique
Revolver held up then slowly lowered and fired : 987 fps using 5.4 gr of Unique
Revolver held down then slowly raised and fired: 762 fps using 3.5 gr of Bullseye
Revolver held up then slowly lowered and fired : 813 fps using 3.5 gr of Bullseye
The 477 bullet is a lswc.
Bob
Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!
"If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"
Hodgdon Titegroup is supposed to be not position sensitive. Loading data shows it to be suitable for this type load in both SWC and full wadcutter. Has anyone tested this powder?
tazman the only load I have tried to date was 3 gr of Titegroup under my 200 gr RN from Lyman. Avg of 10 shots had the bullets running at 700 fps. Standard Deviation was only 5 fps. I did not do any position testing. If our weather clears up next week I will run a batch off for testing.
Bob
Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!
"If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"
35, you bring up a long standing issue with the .38. Being a black powder ctg. originally, it's very long and has a lot of volume for its bore size, and thus, lots of powder room. With a 2" barrel, it's hard to get it to perform in a stellar manner, and the velocity variations you cite ARE at least an issue. I tend to use bulky powders like Unique when loading the .38, and have never found as high a variation as was cited above, but don't doubt at all that it exists. I geneally use WSP primers, which tend to be a tad hotter than some of the other std. primers, and just handle my gun like I would in a SD situation, and velocities are pretty stable when I do that. Just made sense to me to test them that way. When one draws a gun and "throws" it forward so as to aim, that throws the powder forward, away from the primer. So, that's the way I practice and chrono my loads, and they've never been very bad in variation when I do it that way. Consistency is always desirable, but within reasonable parameters, I just don't worry a lot about it, and mainly focus on shot placement, which matters far more than all the other factors put together.
Still, you make a good point.
And while we're on the subject, I once loaded 7.6 gr. Blue Dot behind some 158 gr. LSWCHP's - a load I read in a magazine. It was really a stout load, and that much isn't recommended in any of the manuals any more. This was back a number of years ago, and it was a SD load for an ankle gun, a M-60 S&W. I never fired many in it, but it was +P rated, and from the recoil alone, it was obviously something not quite within normal .38 specs. I used it sparingly and carried it due to having to visit a particularly potentially dangerous parolee. I figured if the gun didn't last long, but I did, that was OK by me, and it was the guys who hung around this particular drug dealer that were the danger, not him. They'd likely have been drugged up, and possibly immune from "shock." It was a comfort then, but now, I mainly just try to concentrate on placement. A CNS hit still does good work, especially up close where one really HAS to stop things very quickly.
All kinds of ways of looking at this issue, and things to consider. This is just my way, FWIW?
I am quite certain that powder position will have an effect on velocity with some powders. As far as I am concerned, does that make a real world difference in the handgunner being able to hit what they are shooting at?
That does not appear to be an issue to me. I use primarily Bulleye and have always handled my handguns in a consistent manner. My handguns are on the bench in front of me, in a holster at my side, or in my hand pointing at the ground. I always bring them up to a firing position and have never taken time to position the powder.
Bottom line is that for my handgun shooting, this is not a real world issue, but theory to be argued on boards like this. I have never been much of a theory person.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Just curious, were these tests in .357 brass or .38 Special brass? And what primers were you using?
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Tests were with 38spl brass. Winchester SPP. Temperature was 5C. F1 Chrony at 10 feet from chronograph. I agree with Char-Char the affect has little real value in the real world.
Take Care
Bob
Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!
"If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"
The discussion about powder position sensitivity comparing WCs to SWCs at closely similar projectile weights quickly becomes a moot point when the heavier slugs are considered.
It is obvious in the included photo that the 195 grain soft lead hollow-point seats to the same depth as when using the crimp groove of the Saeco DEWC. The powder's combustion chamber is practically identical, and the shot-to-shot consistency comparisons between the two are a non-issue.
I use Unique in this application so the extra bullet weight will only help to promote consistant powder burn, and repeatable results.
I have tested these heavy soft lead HPs side-by-side with all manner of factory offerings and handloads. Deep penetration with reliable expansion has been the rule, and I've not yet seen anything else that I'd prefer in a 2" snub-nosed 38 Special. YMMV
The 38 Special has been doing its work for about 110 years now. Calibers survive for a century+ because they do a lot of things very well. The 38 is accurate in the extreme, tractable for most shooters, and has been available in a wide variety of platforms and configurations. It is no wonder cartridge in terms of stopping ability, and we are learning over time that handguns generally make lackluster tools for the purpose. Our adversaries must receive well-placed hits for the sideiron to be the least bit effective, and when a population's miss rate exceeds 90% (LEO gunfight stats) maybe caliber and load aren't the right questions to be pondering?
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
This sounds like solid thinking to me. I'm going to check it out. Once in a while my carry gun is a S&W M60 .357 5 shot. Usually I carry it when out in the boonies. Fast reloads could be an issue. Maybe load it with something with a bigger meplat, then the TC's in a speed loader. Never tried the Safariland, now I will. What does JM use? He's fast.
Holes kill stuff. Start poking holes in somebody and they will tend to knock off whatever activities caused them to get holes poked in them. In the case of the zombie drug addict person...shoot them a bunch.
Your point on actually hitting the target is probably the most important nugget in this thread. Seen any trout on bicycles lately?
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