Manstopper bullet for the 38 special

[35remington]

I'd reverse your last two choices. As I see it, for anything that needs a little more effectiveness I'd place a solid 148 WC above a solid 158 SWC. The wider meplat of the WC wins, as I see it. A bonus is that ballistic consistency is much better as well.

[Petrol & Powder]

I see your point.
Here's my logic:
I would rather have a bit more weight, coupled with a little less frontal area (= greater penetration ). That is why I put the SWC over the slightly lighter full WC.
I will always take penetration over expansion when talking about self defense rounds. The bullet must reach deep enough to actually damage something important to be effective. Once the penetration is sufficient, bullet expansion becomes the icing on the cake.
I agree that larger frontal area is good but that large meplat is meaningless until it gets deep enough to act upon something. If that lighter bullet with a larger meplat stops short, none of that additional flat frontal area will accomplish a thing to help stop the fight.

[Dutchman]

[SSGOldfart]

Just load a hollow-base wadcutter backwards.

Been doing that for years now I have recovered more than one wadcutter they mushroom better than you'd think.

[SSGOldfart]

For all the guys talking about a HBWC loaded backwards. How do you all get accuracy at 25yards? I tried the HBWC loaded backwards but got very poor accuracy and poor penetration. About the only thing they did do was expand, but then again a soft lead wadcutter loaded properly gave good expansion and way better penetration.

Did you load flash with the case mouth? My groups got better,I shot a couple of goats penetration was about the same both ways,I got better mushrooms loading the right way I really couldn't tell much difference between either!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Char-Gar]

I see your point.
Here's my logic:
I would rather have a bit more weight, coupled with a little less frontal area (= greater penetration ). That is why I put the SWC over the slightly lighter full WC.
I will always take penetration over expansion when talking about self defense rounds. The bullet must reach deep enough to actually damage something important to be effective. Once the penetration is sufficient, bullet expansion becomes the icing on the cake.
I agree that larger frontal area is good but that large meplat is meaningless until it gets deep enough to act upon something. If that lighter bullet with a larger meplat stops short, none of that additional flat frontal area will accomplish a thing to help stop the fight.

It is my understanding and belief that a full charge wadcutter will give quite deep penetration and do more damage on the way than a SWC. The one I use weights 154 grains dressed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Expanding bullet design is very much like the world of advertising (indeed some of it is advertising), in which if it is high in something, it is low in something else. If it penetrates really well (and the target dressing warm or wearing military webbing may come into it), it delivers energy badly. If it delivers energy really quickly, it may be insufficiently penetrative.

The Webley manstopper bullet was designed for colonial warfare, in which killing someone wasn't of much value (there were always plenty left), but defeating his immediate intentions was. It is surely the extreme in expansion, and perhaps the only kind which wouldn't become plugged and non-expansive due to heavy clothing. But it had obvious snags, well explained by some posters above, even in the very brief period before it was dropped in compliance with international treaties.

Apart from the central nervous system, about the only way a portable and easily shootable pistol can possess instant stopping power is by breaking the major bones used in locomotion. Col. La Garde, in the Chicago stockyards and cadaver testing which led to the adoption of the .45 ACP, became convinced that large caliber, heavy bullets and fairly soft construction were the key to doing this, and velocity didn't matter nearly as much. Small jacketed bullets, even when they had much higher velocity, were much more liable to glance off, or to pierce were bone without shattering it. He didn't consider the .455 manstopper a bad bullet, and his cadaver testing x-ray photographs aren't sufficient in number to be conclusive. But it does look as if they were more likely than round nosed lead bullets to leave a major bone only slightly fractured or not at all. So what do you get in exchange for this? More destructive effect in soft tissues, where no revolver bullet is likely to rob the target of a few moments' payback time.

Much the same logic applies to the British choice of a 200gr. .38. I think only a few eccentrics thought it was as good as the .455, but the military didn't employ anybody to go firing pistols at people. It didn't fall too far short, in exchange for a much better chance of men who weren't intended as combat infantrymen, and whose time would be taken up with increasing technical training, becoming capable of self-defense in close-up emergencies. I think 200gr. would have a considerable advantage over 150 or so in that situation, and the disadvantages of the manstopper design would be greater than in the larger size.

[Blackwater]

I'm with Char-Gar on this.

And in addition, 44man's post recently about the difference in how blood vessels clot and close up when cut, rather than merely being torn, has given me MUCH to think about. We all know how difficult it is to stop the bleeding when we cut ourselves with a razor while shaving, whereas a scratch (tearing flesh) usually is pretty easy to get to stop bleeding. I've come to think that this really explains the LBT style WFN's effectiveness. I've never used them, but reports from very credible sources all seem to uniformly indicate how truly effective they are on live targets. Look at the bullets, and you'll note a pretty sharp ojive shoulder. Cast hard, and driven to good velocity, these would obviously tend to cut blood vessels, capilaries and organ tissues cleanly, and make them leak blood like a sieve. Apply this principle to self defense loads, particularly for the snubbies, and at least a moderately heavy bullet wt., and you may just find the most effective possible load for .38's, especially the snubbies, which are a bit velocity challenged.

The problem is, this realization is gonna' cost me MONEY! I need a good 158 gr. WFN now! I'm a crotechety ol' phart, and don't WANT to spend the money, BUT .... if it's necessary, it's just flat necessary, and I'm thinking about giving my DIL my pre '72 Colt DS. It's a real beauty, nickeled (which she'll probably like and will likely be an asset since she's unlikely to maintain it really regularly), tight as a tick, and smooth as butter. I love this little gun, but suspect it'd be best made use of in her hands, if I can just make a set of grips to fit her rather dainty hands. It's so intuitive in operation that I think that would be a real asset to her too, over the Kel Tec P-40 I got her some years ago now. It's not rated for +P's, and an LBT type WFN is likely to be the top performer in real life scenarios in this little gun, I think? The full WC driven to full velocity would be the best 2nd choice, cast hard. Those sharp, cutting shoulders of the ojives should significantly reduce the delay between impact and losing enough oil pressure to drop a BG. penetration from the 2" barrel should be adequate at the very least, given a hard alloy, and that ain't no small thing in a .38 snubby! At least a moderately heavy for caliber bullet helps penetration, but there's got to be good velocity to make that sharp shoulder cut more effectively and efficiently, so as to get best effect, particularly for short barrels.

That's my take on the issue, anyway, and thanks to 44man for his insights. The light bulb FINALLY went on about the LBT's and how they work when he posted his theory on the cut vs. tear thing. Darned smart man there! VERY observant, and always looking for what WORKS, and never quits questioning ideas, his own as well as those of others. I learn a lot from men like that, so 44man, THANKS! I may not be all that bright sometimes, but I DO at least listen, and I really WANT to know the truth about what works, and if possible, WHY it works. You've given me a real epiphany, I think.

[Walkingwolf]

I load a Bayou Bullet 138 grain wadcutter over long shot for 900fps, seated to the crimp groove with a heavy roll crimp. The recoil is surprisingly manageable. I have not seen any factory loads that performed as advertised in a snub.

First five rounds are the wadcutters, reloads are 160 gr RNFP at 800fps.

Wadcutters loaded properly perform much like a 9mm. Reduced case capacity results in higher pressure with less powder. Less powder results in less muzzle flash.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think Char-Gar's heavy wadcutter may be the best of both worlds if we forego a hollow point. However, it is also a bit unconventional. Not bad, just not common. It clearly has merit.
My choice of a SWC over a full WC is based more on weight and penetration than a brutal flat frontal area. There's no doubt that a flat front soft bullet does bad things to flesh & bone and I do not doubt that it can penetrate fairly well if driven fast enough.
We may be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. A 158 +/- grain SWC vs. a 154 gr +/- full WC may be so close in real world performance that it just doesn't matter.

I STILL strongly believe that the 38 Special 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow-point driven at +P velocities (158 gr. LSWCHP+P); AKA "FBI load" - is a proven performer in 38 Special. I think a lot of people dismiss that load because it is not: new, cutting edge, exotic or trendy. I so don't care. It has a great track record and until you can trump that proven performance, I'll be dogmatic in my approach.

Getting back to the OP, whenever you say "manstopper" and "handgun" in the same sentence you are probably making a mistake. Handguns SUCK at stopping human beings. The best we can do is to tilt the odds in our favor as much as possible.

[tazman]

I have been frequenting gun shops since 1972. When there, I always listen to the people who either run the shops or are there on a regular basis.
Many of these people have been LEOs or MPs at some point in their live and have stories to tell about what worked and what didn't.
Many carried the 38 special before the semi-autos became popular for police use. Many carried both at various times over the years. Listening to their stories is enlightening.
Not all of them will agree on what is the best load for a particular gun. What they do agree on is what will work well if perhaps not the best choice(they were often limited on what they could load their weapons with).
Nearly all of them agree that any hard cast boolit with a sharp edge to it(either wadcutter or semiwadcutter) causes massive bleeding and tends to drop a man faster due to blood loss and shock than almost anything else available for use in a 38 special revolver. The only other round that found consensus was a full charge 357 magnum loaded with 125 grain hollow points.
Since they needed to live or die by their handgun, they wanted to use what worked. They claimed the accuracy and easily handling characteristics of the wadcutter/semiwadcutter loads enabled them to put the rounds where they needed to and did the job they needed to get done. Usually they were not allowed to use the magnum loads, so they went with the wadcutter/semiwadcutter as the load of choice.
They all agreed that round nosed bullets of any construction were ineffective unless perfectly placed which in a shooting situation can be difficult.
Never having shot anyone myself, I can't contribute any experiences of my own in this matter. I do think the voices of experience I listened to had a lot of knowledge to share.

[shotstring]

Back in the mid 1980's, there was a bullet called the UltraShock which used a reversed hb wadcutter with a steel screw. That bullet was designed for the 357 but it was manipulated every which way to try to get it to work in a 2 inch 38 snub and still penetrate as well as expand. It just wasn't possible. That bullet could be adjusted from zero expansion to expanding to 90 caliber, but with that much expansion it would blow up on a leather coat. It was discovered that without more velocity than a 2" 38 could deliver, you could either have expansion or penetration but you couldn't have both. With a 357, you could have both. The designer of the bullet sold a 38 version but it never worked and the design of that bullet gave MUCH more control over expansion than anyone could hope to achieve with just a reverse hollow based wadcutter.

[salvadore]

I load a cast bullet from a modern bond mold. A full wadcutter with a crimp groove that allows it to be loaded like any non WC bullet. Like the gent above, I have never been involved in a gun fight, but settled on that bullet because it is the ultimate meplat .38. I use it in a Colt Cobra and a model 60.

L

[StrawHat]

Like several others, I gave the reversed HBWC a try. It sure made an impressive mushroom if fired into anything soft, water, wet paper, tomato juice but certainly lacked penetration. I took an old wool overcoat and draped it over a 5 gallon pail of water. % shots and not one hit plastic, all were stopped by the coat. That was enough for me to shelve the experiment. I had a DEWC mold (Lee 150) so cast some of them from a harder alloy, maybe 20/1. Those gave good penetration and hit with authority. Eventually, I got a load of Bullseye that gave me approximately 900 fps, accuracy and penetration were both good enough to stop trying to find a better load.

Kevin

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Attachment 149791 I know that this is the cast boolit forum! But the original post didn't seem limiting to CBs, and since talking about shooting people is a very serious subject I thought I might throw this into the mix. The photo (to prove they exist) is of the W-W 110 gr. JHP +P+ round which was widely used in the '70s and early '80s. It was very effective, as witnessed by Marshall and Sanow's book "Street Stoppers", page 166, updated street results, shows a total number of shootings using this round as being 31 with 25 one shot stops for a percentage of 81. Only the Cor-Bon was a bit better. with 29/24/83. So what you have here is the ages old discussion of "big, slow, blunt" vs. "light, fast, expansion". No--I don't want to argue about it or start an argument--and I've always felt that both sides have very valid points. Very honestly, if I knew I was going to need it I would take my 1911 .45 ACP every time. But, anyway, the agency I worked for required us to carry this ammo. I carried it in a S&W
Mod. 66 4". We could carry a .357 Mag., but it had to be loaded with this ammo. It is hot, and after firing a 60 rd. qualification course your hand couldn't tell that you hadn't been firing magnums. During my time on the dept. there were 13 shootings with this round and everyone died. When I left, several boxes of this went with me, and I have the utmost confidence in it. I wouldn't carry it in a "J" frame. In some circles this is called the "Treasury Dept. load." My agency wanted to go to the .357 Mag., but the ACLU was horrified. I mean--a MAGNUM? And HOLLOW POINTS? So they compromised and gave their blessing to ".38 Special Controlled Expansion Ammunition." See--all lawyers aren't smart and all cops aren't dumb.
About two years after I departed the agency went to .40 S&W autos, as did most departments, and this round faded from view as did duty revolvers. Changing gears a little, quite a few years ago now I read an article that was entitled "It Ain't Your Granddad's 9mm Anymore" (or a very similar title). It was a truly excellent essay on how changes in bullet design and powder had brought the 9mm from being considered somewhat ineffective to something very desirable as a defense round. Again, this is really proven by Marshall and Sanow's books and compilation of actual shootings. Therefore, although I really like and respect the W-W 110 gr. .38 load, most of the time I actually carry a 9mm loaded with 124 gr. JHP Remington Golden Saber ammo. My choice would seem to be validated by the current wave of change that shows many law enforcement agencies abandoning the 40 S&W and returning to the 9mm. Many of them originally went to the 9mm from the .38/357, but dropped the 9mm in favor of the 40 S&W. Improvements in the 9mm have been so strong that now they are going back again using the newer ammo. But, like I said before, regardless of all the stats and figures I'd take my 1911 (big and slow) as first choice, and have no argument with that theory either. Char-Gar's loads look most impressive.

[dualsport]

When in doubt copy the SEALS. They know what they're doing. Their techniques counter the down side of RNFMJ and they do just fine. Deep penetration, multiple hits, in the right places. Boom, done. I still have a full box of old factory steel jacketed .38 Sp. ammo. No doubt it will do the job if properly applied.

[azrednek]

I know this is a Cast Boolit forum. My non scientific tests of shooting various calibers, home cast and factory fodder into bags of dry wall mud. I'm sold on Winchester Silver-Tips. 38 Special and 45ACP both standard velocity. The bags literally exploded with the Silver-Tips. Based on the shock value I opt to carry the Silver-Tips in 38, 9MM and 45ACP. The down-side, I haven't seen the 38's for sale in several years. I recently found 9MM and 45's.

[shotstring]

Since DG opened up the conversation to all projectiles rather than simply cast or db wadcutters, I have found what I consider the best available round for a 2" snubnose. But it isn't 38 - I fire it from my 9mm s & w 940. The federal HST hollow point in my experience expands from my 2 inch revolver to exactly the same dimensions as it does from any of my full size 9mm autos. Only round I've ever found that does that, and I have been looking for decades. If I'm not going with a cast projectile, this is one I use in every caliber as it is the most consistent round I have ever seen in regard to expansion. Granted, I have had limited media to test it in, but water is nothing if not consistent as a medium, so it does seem to offer some fairly accurate comparisons. I've also used wet newspaper, wet mud, sand, 2 foot blocks of clay as well as wood and it performs in all of them. I don't know if any of you have had any testing that didn't go so well with this round, but I haven't been able to find a flaw in the design of HST ammo except possible lack of penetration under extraordinary circumstances - which I haven't found an example of yet.

[Outpost75]

Attachment 149791 ....since talking about shooting people is a very serious subject I thought I might throw this into the mix. The photo (to prove they exist) is of the W-W 110 gr. JHP +P+ round which was widely used in the '70s and early '80s. It was very effective, as witnessed by Marshall and Sanow's book "Street Stoppers", page 166, updated street results, shows a total number of shootings using this round as being 31 with 25 one shot stops for a percentage of 81... , anyway, the agency I worked for required us to carry this ammo. I carried it in a S&W Mod. 66 4". We could carry a .357 Mag., but it had to be loaded with this ammo. It is hot, and after firing a 60 rd. qualification course your hand couldn't tell that you hadn't been firing magnums. During my time on the dept. there were 13 shootings with this round and everyone died. When I left, several boxes of this went with me, and I have the utmost confidence in it. I wouldn't carry it in a "J" frame. In some circles this is called the "Treasury Dept...38 Special Controlled Expansion Ammunition...." and this round faded from view as did duty revolvers...I really like and respect the W-W 110 gr. .38 load... But, like I said before, regardless of all the stats and figures I'd take my 1911 (big and slow) as first choice, and have no argument with that theory either. Char-Gar's loads look most impressive.

I am very familiar with the Q4040 U.S. Treasury load and still have a couple boxes in the plain white wrapper. The Winchester 110-grain JHP component bullet which used to be available, with the deep hollow base cavity, six-cut skived jacket with huge glob of exposed lead with generous hollowpoint cavity, was the most accurate .38 Special load I ever tested, and outshot all but the very best lots of match target wadcutter ammunition. The original Q4040 +P+ ammunition was loaded to pressures about 15% higher than industry +P standard, about 22,500 psi, and gave 990+/-30 fps in a 2" S&W Model 15 revolver. Current LE catalog symbol is RA38110HP, as described in the attachment.

Attachment 149797 Attachment 149798

Attachment 149799

[9.3X62AL]

AZ--

My old agency's first autopistol loads were the 9mm and 45 ACP Winchester Silvertips. There weren't a lot of shootings back in those days, but the rounds seemed to do all right.

Caliber wars and bullet banter are entertaining, but their content often addresses the wrong questions. The real priority is to HIT THE ASSAILANT, and to hit him/her well before he/she inflicts injury or death. Bullets into the background won't accomplish that task, no matter how modern in design they might be. The practices to engage in are those that facilitate meaningful shot placement with the system being carried. My method has been to develop a cast bullet load that mimics carry load ballistics closely--load a whole bunch of said duplicators--and do a whole lot of earnest range practice with those loads in my carry guns. With the onset of component shortages for the past several years, most of the shooting I do has been limited to this venue--recreational shooting has largely dried up and disappeared, and the components I do expend are sent in this direction.