Manstopper bullet for the 38 special

[Outpost75]

That is one bad assed lookin' boolit !!!!

Here is the "Crook's Eye" view, CharGar and I think alike...

Attachment 149661

The mold is now off to Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com for insert bar conversion to
"Cavernous Cup Point" which will reduce weight to about 185 grains in 1:40 tin/lead.

[Good Cheer]

In the brief period between being old enough to carry a revolver and starting to reload, I got Bullseye with .38 HBWC loads from a guy I worked with. He had some brand of progressive press and would end up with some loaded backwards. They were accurate enough for rabbit heads in the Security Six.

For hotter HBWC loads developed just for expansion, these from the Lyman mold were for an air weight snubby.

[Char-Gar]

Outpost....I have never fired a HBWC in a 38 Special case in the long magnum charge hole, because I just never have. I am glad to know it is a bad idea, in case I should ever be moved to do so. Thanks for the heads up. It makes sense, but I just never thought about it.

I do load solid based wadcutters in the 357 Mag using 11 grains of 2400. The accuracy even out of 50 yards is outstanding and they are less than full snort loads. They are a giant step beyond 38 Special, but still easy on K frame guns like the Model 19. I have also loaded some (357 Mag) using 7.5 grains of the old Israel made AA5. The AA5 loads deliver the same accuracy and shoot to the same POI as the 11/2400 loads.

The only HBWCs I have fired over 3.5/Bulleye are the now discontinued Miester versions. They are up to the task. Here is a pic. I still have a couple of thousand, but shoot them over 3/BE, preferring the super flat nose Hensley and Gibbs for full charge wadcutters.

Yep, that Ed Harris is a pretty smart dude. His experience the backwards loaded HBWC is like mine, but I have never tested it as through. I loaded a few hundred and found that beyond very short range, they were not dependable. I was doing most of my shooting of those things with a Colt Coba (2") and gave up he notion pretty quick. I think it was Skelton who first mentioned it in print, or at least was the first one I read.

BTW...I finally found those black powder 44-40's last week, they were well hidden, but I finally moved the right box and there they were. If all goes as intended, I will get them in the mail to you next week.

[Walkingwolf]

The .38 has caused more cop deaths from sad performance then anything. Nine not better. My slingshot is better. My carry would start at the .45 and go up.

What caused cops deaths by firearm is the *** criminals, not the .38, or any other round. Mitigating factors are making mistakes, and poor shot placement. A 22 to the noggin will stop a criminal faster then a .45 super to a finger.

[johniv]

Long ago , the fellow I shot with loaded HBWC in 38 cases , to be shot in his Ruger speed six. Of course being young and dumb, we increased the load till we got 2 holes in the target with each shot. Never had the skirt stick in the bbl. but they certainly came apart.
As for the inverted HBWC, the accuracy was not there at 25 yds,but they were not suppose to be long range loads.
John

[azrednek]

The police get there and the paramedics are dragging the thug out from behind the counter so they can get him onto a gurney, and bullets are falling out of his jacket onto the floor.

.

DougGuy pardon my being dense!! Do you know if the slugs that fell out of his jacket had gone through bad guy's torso or stopped between front of his jacket and body? Was it the Hydrashocks or UltraMags the cops wanted?

I loaded 9MM Federal Hydrashocks in my wife's Beretta PX compact. The recoil is very noticeably less than even non- +P's but if they stop just after penetrating a jacket its time for me to go back to my favorite all-around standby Winchester Silver Tips.

[Walkingwolf]

I carried a factory round when working in crowds, or buildings that basically was a HBWC with a spire in the center. I don't think they are made anymore. I would not carry them today, it was a great idea back then, but I have my doubts to the penetration.

The first six rounds in my GP100 are 138 grain solid wadcutters from Bayou Bullets at 1200 fps. Speed loaders are loaded with 158 SWC at 1050 fps. But on occasion I carry guns with much weaker ballistics, and I am not concerned about power, and weight or expansion. I practice daily, I can hit a head sized target at 10 yards point shooting. While I do not carry 22lr handgun for SD, also long as the gun functioned I would have no problem with carrying one for self defense.

At one time there was a 38/200 police load that was considered effective. But we have moved to speed, size, and capacity and lured into a false sense of security. There are four very small targets on the human body that are effective, the head, the heart, the spine, and the groin. Two will result in loss of motor skills, and two will facilitate bleeding out. One should cause extreme pain.

Nothing will save you if you do not hit a good hit, and the bad guy gets the first debilitating shot on target. It does not matter how many rounds you have, how powerful the cartridge, or bullet design. Don't shot first, and put the bullets where they belong. Train/practice!

[azrednek]

At one time there was a 38/200 police load that was considered effective.

I tried those years ago, late 70's in a 5-shot Charter Arms 38 snubby. The recoil was nasty, nearly as bad as a J-frame 357 125HP. The 38/200's were Remington factory RNL. During that era, best I recall. Police preferred a Super-Vel 110gr HP for their 38 snubbys.

[Char-Gar]

The .38 has caused more cop deaths from sad performance then anything. Nine not better. My slingshot is better. My carry would start at the .45 and go up.

I don't think that statement can be backed up with stats. It is true that the old 155 grain RN load that police used for generations was indeed not a very good fight stopper. But nobody is talking about that load, nor would anyone seriously advocate that load for defense.

When the factories started loading the FBI/Detroit load, which featured a SWC HP at +P pressure and velocities, the lowly 38 Special became another different animal. RCMP loaded a similar bullet at 1,000 fps for their 5" Model 10.

Lee Jurris came out with high speed light weight jacketed HP in his Super-Vel ammo and again the 38 Special was infused with life. Other makers were quick to follow in Lee's footsteps.

A good solid base wadcutter loaded to full charge is also an effective load.

While everybody is free to use what they like, and bigger is better, all things being equal, the 38 Special, thoughtfully loaded, is far from being inferior to a sling shot. It really is not a thoughtful response to say that it is.

[Char-Gar]

I recall the old 38/200 police load very well. I fired a few boxes and hand loaded some more. The bullet was a blunt round nose. These were in the days when the 155 RN was standard police issue and compared to that the 38/200 was more effective.

But, the load was still hampered with a bullet nose that just parted the skin and slipped on in. The extra weight did have more momentum. Getting hit with a bullet that has 25% more weight does make a difference, but these loads do need historical context.

The 38/200 blunt round nose would not a good choice today. There are much better alternatives.

[Thumbcocker]

There were some double hollow base wad cutters offered as a component in the past. The top cavity had a post swagged into it like a hydra shock. No idea who made them but they appeared similar to the Webly .455 manstopper slugs. I had some of them for a while that a friend gave me in a box of assorted gun stuff but never loaded them.

I can tell you that a Lyman 358495 over 4.9 of 231 will shoot through a opossum longways and go on through a chunk of oak siding behind said opossum. The recipient rolled over and was drt. There was a liquid sound when it was picked up. I can also tell you that firing a 358495 over 4.9 of 231 in the small tin roofed feed room of the chicken house late at night makes a nice flash and produces a ringing in the ears for a few days.

[ofitg]

Interesting article in the latest handloader magazine. At some point in time the Brits had a 45 caliber manstopper bullet for their 455 webley revolvers. Big hollow point bullet. Well Bob Haley in texas came up with one for the 38 special same as it's bigger brother but at 140 grains. !40 grains would easily get to 800 fps without straining anything. Good article. And get the single shot mag from wolf publishing while you are at it. Good read. Frank

Since nobody else has mentioned it - the Brits replaced their .455 with a .38/200 round and used the latter during WW2. It seems that the long-ish .38/200 slug has a tendency to tumble upon impact.

[bob208]

years ago I loaded for some town police agencies. the load I used was 358429 loaded to 900 to 1000 fps. in .38 spl. cases. they liked them they would go through a car door or windshield. I have taken a deer with that load. then they went to the 9mm.

[Larry Gibson]

Back when I was a LE firearms/surval tactics instructor I has a bunch of test patches from Second Chance. I put them against a 12" thick stack of soaked newsprint and shot them with numerous loads of various cartridges. When I shot a test patch with the factory Remington 38/200 gr "manstoppers" the bullet bounced back and hit me in the stomach. No injury as I was wearing a Second Chance vest and the bullet bounced off that (left a hole in my shirt though) and landed at my feet. I was not impressed to say the least.

I carry an issue 5" and then a 4" barreled M15 S&W for a number of years as an LEO. In my tenure there we went from 158 gr RNs to 110 JHPs to 125 JHPs and then to the Winchester "FBI" 150 LSWCHP +P. I found that to be the most effective .38 SPL cartridge to use. I duplicate that load by casting 358156 bullets of 40-1 alloy, loading them over 5.5 gr Unique and HPing them to the front drive band with a 1/8" Forster HP tool. Velocity out of a 4" M15 is just at 1000 fps.

They can be made more effective by opening the HP up with a Michaels rear sling swivel stud drill and then fill the HP with silicon seal. The seal stays soft and doesn't alloy the HP to fill up close when shot through dense clothing. The bullet begins to expand immediately. That technique is a pre-curser to the softer plastic tips used in personal defense bullets these days. These are much more effective than an HPWC loaded backwards or any heavier SWC or FN. It's about the best you'll get out of a 38 SPL short of going to the jacketed light weight high velocity frangible bullets.

Larry Gibson

[DougGuy]

DougGuy pardon my being dense!! Do you know if the slugs that fell out of his jacket had gone through bad guy's torso or stopped between front of his jacket and body? Was it the Hydrashocks or UltraMags the cops wanted?

I loaded 9MM Federal Hydrashocks in my wife's Beretta PX compact. The recoil is very noticeably less than even non- +P's but if they stop just after penetrating a jacket its time for me to go back to my favorite all-around standby Winchester Silver Tips.

I think it was the Ultramags that had gone completely through and stopped inside the jacket on the far side, and they were falling out of the jacket onto the floor.

[JWFilips]

"Wadcutter"

[azrednek]

I think it was the Ultramags that had gone completely through and stopped inside the jacket on the far side, and they were falling out of the jacket onto the floor.

Couldn't ask for better performance!! Goes clean through the bad guy but stops before causing any collateral damage.

[9.3X62AL]

It has been a long time since I carried a 38 Special in harm's way. Properly loaded, it can be very effective felon repellant--so my non-use isn't a caliber prejudice. If I could find a 2" Model 10 or a late-series Detective Special at reasonable cost, I would happily do so because I can hit things with either platform--and hit them well. Me--my hands--and the J-frame S&W do not see eye-to-eye, even with aftermarket grips. My agency's approved loads in both 38 Special and 357 Magnum now use 125 grain bullets, which are decent loads.

I lean in Larry Gibson's direction for ammo selection in this caliber, favoring the 150-160 grain SWC at +P prompting if I had my druthers. That isn't a strong preference, because my primary concern is having an arm that I can shoot with the best possible accuracy.......most fixed-sight 38 Specials are regulated for bullets in this weight range, and my experience has been that up to 25 yards the +Ps don't hit very differently than do standard pressure 158s. The 125 grainers DO hit lower at 25 yards, though--2" to 4" lower in some examples. At bad-breath distance, that isn't germane--but there it is.

[Piedmont]

I thought the Handloader article was pretty lame, so it was up to the standard of the rest of the magazine in the recent past to date. So they came up with a cast .38 hollow point. Big deal. Elmer Keith had a cast .38 hollow point out that would expand even before the .357 magnum was introduced.

I also don't understand the fascination of some of you guys with the heavy flat points in a .38. Sure it will work on bowling pins, but a 160 grain flat point loaded to the same pressure will shoot all the way through any man from any angle and if you believe Veral Smith and his theories it will make a larger tissue splash on the way through due to the higher velocity. Now a 200 grain round nose is a different animal IF it tumbles, but those flat points aren't going to tumble.

[Petrol & Powder]

Years ago I did some work with loading HBWC's backwards and I was very unimpressed with the setup. For starters, accuracy was abysmal at any range beyond a few yards and it got really bad at over 15 yards; like not on the paper bad.
Penetration was not acceptable. Often the skirt would fold over and separate from the base. The resulting underweight fragment lacked the mass to go very far. Making matters worse, the 148 grain HBWC starts out about 10 grains lighter than it should be.
I think the big hollow base of a HBWC looks like a huge hollow point when loaded backwards but it clearly doesn't perform like one. I would never recommend the practice of loading them backwards as a makeshift HP. If I was forced to use that bullet for self-defense I would probably still load it in the conventional manner.

I think the 38 Special really does it's best work with bullets in the 155-160 grain range. The standard bullet weight of 158 grains wasn't just tradition or a fluke of history. The 158 grain loading is a sweet spot that combines mass and velocity and accuracy right where that diameter bullet works best.

My first choice is Still the 158gr +P LSWCHP known as the "FBI Load", "Treasury Load", Chicago Load, blah, blah, blah..... Whatever you want to call that combination. If I couldn't have a hollow point, Char-gar's full heavy wadcutter would be my next choice with it's extra weight and full profile flat nose. The solid 158 SWC with a soft alloy and a lot of pressure would be next, followed by a solid 148gr WC loaded as hot as I could possibly get away with as my last choice.

None of my choices would involve a backwards loaded 148 gr HBWC.