Manstopper bullet for the 38 special

[robertbank]

Interesting read for sure from folks I respect. All of this had led me to have my Mossberg Defender beside Winchester PDX1.12 Defender slugs. 1Oz slug accompanied by 3 x 00 pellets nicely secured behind the seat of my truck. Out to 25 yards the four group nicely in a five inch circle. Covers melons for sure and still allowed by our ever present Liberal Gov't. Hard to find a decent belt holster for it though. I have more four legged worries then most of you folks do.

[9.3X62AL]

I do like The Gauge. Very much.

[wonderwolf]

Yes sir. The sidearm is a comprehensive compendium of compromises. Having one on board beats throwing rocks, though.

Which is one reason why I started making slings (david/goliath type) back when I was in scouts, couldn't have a gun but boy you could sling a golf ball size rock with enough force to put somebody down for good if you nailed them in the bean bowl.

I crimp in the crimp groove and use 3.5 gr of Bullseye or 5.0 of CFE pistol.
I never had much luck with loads under 3.0 of Bullseye unless I was using a hollow based wadcutter crimped over the front of the boolit as for a Smith model 52. They are fun to shoot but don't group as well for me.

Hit the range again today and tried 3.0 , 3.2 and 3.5gr of bullseye under that HP 360432 bullet out to 50 yards, I'm wondering if the cavity is causing a lot more wobble than it really should because the higher loads just kept opening up the groups which is very disappointing to me, I'll try some different loads and see if anything works better than the bullseye loads. The carbine isn't a super accurate but I have obtained some very good groups with it. Handgun groups were a lot better but they were also just at 21'

[S. Galbraith]

Interesting article in the latest handloader magazine. At some point in time the Brits had a 45 caliber manstopper bullet for their 455 webley revolvers. Big hollow point bullet. Well Bob Haley in texas came up with one for the 38 special same as it's bigger brother but at 140 grains. !40 grains would easily get to 800 fps without straining anything. Good article. And get the single shot mag from wolf publishing while you are at it. Good read. Frank

If you look at photographs of the old .455 Webley Manstopper it was basically just a fat, soft wadcutter with a concave nose and base. It was notoriously hard to load into the cylinder, particularly under combat stress which is why the it never saw much military or police use even before the Hague Convention. The round nose MKI, MKII, and MKVI remained the standard bullet designs as long as the Webley was in service.

In modern defensive loads which are FAR superior to the old Manstopper design, there is still a degree of conical shape to the JHP design to assist in feeding.

[tazman]

Hit the range again today and tried 3.0 , 3.2 and 3.5gr of bullseye under that HP 360432 bullet out to 50 yards, I'm wondering if the cavity is causing a lot more wobble than it really should because the higher loads just kept opening up the groups which is very disappointing to me, I'll try some different loads and see if anything works better than the bullseye loads. The carbine isn't a super accurate but I have obtained some very good groups with it. Handgun groups were a lot better but they were also just at 21'

I haven't tried them beyond 25 yards yet since I don't currently have a range that long. Most of my testing is done at 25-30 feet since that is the distance from my bedroom door to the other side of the house. I figure that is the longest shot I will probably have to take with them.
I need to get some sandbags for my handguns. The range where I shoot pulled all the gun rests off the range. It seems some people weren't paying attention to their alignment with the backstop and would shoot the target carriers/cables when resting the gun. No rests make it hard to tell just how good the loads are since I can't hold all that steady off hand.

[FergusonTO35]

Interesting read for sure from folks I respect. All of this had led me to have my Mossberg Defender aside Winchester PDX1.12 Defender slugs. 1Oz slug accompanied by 3 x 00 pellets nicely secured behind the seat of my truck. Out to 25 yards the four group nicely in a five inch circle. Covers melons for sure and still allowed by our ever present Liberal Gov't. Hard to find a decent belt holster for it though. I have more four legged worries then most of you folks do.

Are you folks allowed to vehicle carry long guns?

[SantaFe66]

Just load a hollow-base wadcutter backwards.

No, that's not what this Bob Hayley bullet is. Not even close. The cavity is supported on the edges with much more lead than the HBWC loaded backwards. If you haven't read that article, do so. You'll see the tests he performed out of a j frame that are very convincing. My main issue is quick reloads aren't assured as the flat bullet may hang up. I load my j frame first with the Manstoppers and the reloads with 110gr HP Winchesters loaded fairly hot (+p). The Hayley bullets are 140gr too, so there's some whallop there.

By the way, the Jet Loader with good holders is the ticket for j frames. Mas Ayoob has several videos comparing them vs. Safariland and HK and the Jet Loaders work better once you master the drill.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm currently working with the Lyman 35891 (not 358091) in my S&W 637. My mold drops them right at 146 grains with range scrap lead. This boolit is really more of a very short SWC than a traditional full wadcutter or even button nose wadcutter like the Lee 358-148-WC. I crimp it in the topmost groove so there is about .250 of boolit protruding. I find that this one definitely prefers charges intended for SWC designs rather than wadcutters. The usual 2.7-2.8 grains Bullseye produces erratic velocity and lots of lube smoke. I'm thinking somewhere around 3.2 grains should be the sweet spot for the 637, maybe 3.4 or 3.5 for my model 10's. Accurate little slug too.

[quasi]

remember the Glazer Safety Slugs? The local city Police fund they worked very well when they were issued .38 special revolvers.

[shunka]

I have been following this thread with great interest, as we have a special fondness for the .38 Chief Special and it's variants...

remember the Glazer Safety Slugs? The local city Police fund they worked very well when they were issued .38 special revolvers.

I too felt the Glaser has a place in the mix, but due to lack of penetration my LEO friends of nigh on 30 years advocated alternating Glasers with 158 gr +P Lead SWC rounds ... then the discussion of "which pill should come up first" arose, and was followed by the fight... errr Long Esoteric Discussions...

yhs
shunka

[44man]

The .38 is not good no matter. Either too fast expansion or no penetration. Many police lost their lives with the thing. The Webley was better but never matched the .45 Colt or even the ACP. Darned C&B's were better. To recommend a .38 makes me say a FOUR to start.

[FergusonTO35]

Police continue to lose their lives while armed with 9mm, .40, and .45 as has happened in my state the past couple of years. Many bystanders are hit by stray police bullets because agencies emphasize capacity and stopping power over marksmanship. I used to work for an LE agency and had access to a drive with the coppers' qualification scores. The weapons used were Glock .40 and .45 pistols, 870 riot guns, and M4 carbines. Most of the cop scores were not encouraging.

Friend, a gun or cartridge is only useful if you can actually shoot the darn thing. I, and thousands of other people, cannot shoot a carry size gun in a +.40 caliber cartridge. I've been shooting a wide variety of guns for over 30 years now and am keenly aware of my strengrhs and limitations. So no, more practice is not going to change anything in this regard. A smartly loaded .38 Special or standard 9mm is the strongest handgun I can shoot with any kind of accuracy and follow up shot ability. I will continue to carry the .380, .38 Special, and 9mm because they match my abilities and I am confident with them. After all, it's my life on the line and not someone else's. If I were to carry a gun I knew was beyond my ability and then failed to put rounds where they need to go in a life or death situation then it will be me who bears the consequences of that decision, not the well intentioned person who told me that a small gun would only get me killed.

The body count in the Orlando massacre could have been alot lower if at some point the terrorist had received a well placed round from a .38, 9mm, or even .32, .25, or .22. It may have not have had the same dramatic effect as a .44 or .45 but it almost certainly would have incapacitated him enough to limit the carnage. A "small" gun or cartridge always beats none at all.

[robertbank]

Are you folks allowed to vehicle carry long guns?

Really a late reply but yes as long as they are covered up or in a case. No issues at all. Ammo has to be separate from the gun of course and the gun cannot be loaded. I usually have the Mossberg with me when travelling here in BC. Folks aren't the issue but you never can tell when bears are about. I hate to have to change a tire along the highway late in the evening with Winnie the Pooh wandering about.

You have to have your firearms license with you.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

Police continue to lose their lives while armed with 9mm, .40, and .45 as has happened in my state the past couple of years. Many bystanders are hit by stray police bullets because agencies emphasize capacity and stopping power over marksmanship. I used to work for an LE agency and had access to a drive with the coppers' qualification scores. The weapons used were Glock .40 and .45 pistols, 870 riot guns, and M4 carbines. Most of the cop scores were not encouraging.

Friend, a gun or cartridge is only useful if you can actually shoot the darn thing. I, and thousands of other people, cannot shoot a carry size gun in a +.40 caliber cartridge. I've been shooting a wide variety of guns for over 30 years now and am keenly aware of my strengrhs and limitations. So no, more practice is not going to change anything in this regard. A smartly loaded .38 Special or standard 9mm is the strongest handgun I can shoot with any kind of accuracy and follow up shot ability. I will continue to carry the .380, .38 Special, and 9mm because they match my abilities and I am confident with them. After all, it's my life on the line and not someone else's. If I were to carry a gun I knew was beyond my ability and then failed to put rounds where they need to go in a life or death situation then it will be me who bears the consequences of that decision, not the well intentioned person who told me that a small gun would only get me killed.

The body count in the Orlando massacre could have been alot lower if at some point the terrorist had received a well placed round from a .38, 9mm, or even .32, .25, or .22. It may have not have had the same dramatic effect as a .44 or .45 but it almost certainly would have incapacitated him enough to limit the carnage. A "small" gun or cartridge always beats none at all.

I agree with this whole heartedly.
I am another one of those people who simply cannot control a heavier weapon than 38 special or 9mm reliably.
I practice weekly at least. I have shot heavier weapons in an attempt to get used to the the recoil. At a certain point, the recoil becomes too much and I either flinch or cannot recover after the shot.
For me, the heavier guns are a waste of time and money and serve no purpose for defense or much of anything else.
I trust what I can do with the 38 special.

[cainttype]

If small size for easy concealment, lightweight for comfortable extended carry, versatility of load choices, utter reliability, and a very high potential return ratio on lethality-versus-size are on your "want list" for a personal protection firearm that could see T-shirt & shorts, pocket, or purse carry... You will be hard pressed to find a better all-around choice than a compact, lightweight, hammerless 38 Special.
The only firearm worth anything is the one you have with you when you need it.

[44man]

Remember the 38 S&W? I worked on many long ago. I lived in Cleveland and to test fire I found to shoot in my fathers car did not make noise. I piled 2x4's on the back floor and put the guns over the front seat. Six shots and every boolit was only half depth in the first board to be plucked out with fingers. They would not go through a winter coat and a .25? Better put it in the BG's eye.
The .38 was standard but the .357 when it came out was the perfect people stopper so the .38 was jacked up with +P.
The .41 came out for police duty but it could not be handled and the .44 mag proved too powerful and did not stop a man as fast as the .357.
A gun is always better then nothing but to take on a creep with an M15 at distance, I sure don't want a .25 or a .38. Most can't hit at 7 yards but the creep might be across the room and when you miss, he will take you out. Even a hit still has you in a bad place. The nine is also sad and is why 17 rounds are shot by police as fast as they can. Most can miss.
I shot with police and never seen guns leaded so bad with the soft factory stuff they fired. Accuracy was dead in the water. I cleaned their guns for them and a full day for each was common. They were poke in the rib guns.
I think a 1911 or 10mm or .40 is what they should carry. If you can't handle them I don't want you protecting me. When they go in for a creep, they don't have a .38 or .25, they have M16's but might have killed innocents in Orlando also.
I still remember the big brute of a guy that came to shoot, White House security. He had a Block and could not hit the paper at 10 yards. I shot his gun and Pete shot it and we poked the center out. Then he watched me take targets at 100 yards with my big revolvers. He never came back!
Taking a druggy with a little gun is like a .25 on the hip in grizz country. Carry salt and pepper. File off the front sight too.
Sorry too small gets you killed.

[cainttype]

The 38 S&W is a far cry from what is available with the 38 Special today.
I can carry anything I want, anytime I leave home. If invited to a gunfight, I'd probably grab a 1911 45 ACP... but for most of the year here the 1911 is not something suitable for everyday carry with light clothing, and you can completely forget ultra-light clothing or pocket carry... and again, smaller ladies purses.

Several have previously mentioned some heavier-than-normal options available to casters/swagers/handloaders in this thread. Anyone actually familiar with those options, we're talking hands-on experience, would not dismiss them as ineffective. They would, in fact, find that idea somewhat ludicrous.
The reality is that a snubby with a factory 158gr LSWCHP has been a standard for deep concealment for decades. That fact is not because it is ineffective.

Some situations dictate a small platform. Maximizing terminal performance potential with a minimum of size leaves the compact 38 Specials with very few serious competitors.
The fact that such a weapon can often be carried, effectively concealed (while larger options have to remain home locked in a safe), make the option something to be seriously considered by anyone restricted by size and/or weight.

[44man]

Small ladies are not better off with small guns. A tiny gun more concealed is not safety. Would I ever give my wife a .25? She drives a 4 Runner not a square piece of junk. I do not worry about her with the big hunk of metal. She was at home with a .44 mag.
If I had to shoot someone breaking in, it will be the .500 JRH , might take my 4 runner out too but the creep will be slush.
Not like TV where the BG's are shooting full auto rifles and the good guys are running and killing all with a pistol. Hide behind drywall or a table. Many of you live in that world. James bond with his little gun that never failed. You want to stop, better have bigger.
Stupid was the .223 for troops. Millions of rounds for a kill. a 30-06 from an M1 could go through a 2' tree to kill. The varmint round could not go through weeds. We lost many due to a toy rifle. The SKS was deadly.
Seems the .38 got many killed in war until the ACP came in.

[cainttype]

So if conditions, clothing, etc. leave you with two choices...
1) Larger firearm remains home and you opt to carry a properly loaded 38 Special.
2) Larger firearm remains home and you go unarmed.
You're going to be better prepared for some life-threatening encounter with an armed assailant by choosing which?

It isn't complicated.
The ONLY firearm worth anything... is the firearm you have on you when you NEED it.

[Dan Cash]

It isn't complicated.
The ONLY firearm worth anything... is the firearm you have on you when you NEED it.

So absolutely true.