Manstopper bullet for the 38 special

[shotstring]

Azrednek, I too am impressed with the ww silver tips - and have been since the early 80's when I first started using them. They are my go-to projectiles for defense for both 357 and 44 mag. Lots of expansion without crazy recoil. But in reloading with silver tips, I found that you can't drive them too hard or the bullet simply blows apart. At anything even approaching max loadings the case separates from the core and the lead core separates badly at the edges as it turns into a flat saucer like projectile. I have found it to lose up to 40% of its weight. The secret seems to be to load them in the 1200 - 1300 fps range as maximum. They start working well at about 1000 fps but don't reach maximum expansion till about 1250 fps. My loadings for 357 use 16.6 to 17.5 gr of 296 which is close to the factory loading. They seem to use 296 with an added flash deterrent. In 44 mag I use 11.9 gr of unique which works fabulously for a defense round my short barreled model 27s. 296 powder doesn't work well in 44 mag because minimum starting loads of 296 powder is still way to high and cause the silver tips to disintegrate on impact. I've used 231 powder as well, but don't like it as well as the unique - recoil is too snappy and pressure seems higher. The snappy recoil at max loadings of 231 also snapped off the leaf of my rear sight on my stainless El Dorado in 44 mag, which I use when developing max loads. Unique, while not the "push" recoil of 296 powder is still closer too it than the jarring recoil of ww 231 powder in my opinion.

[tazman]

I picked up a Modern Bond mold similar to Char Gar's except lighter a couple of weeks ago. Mine drops at 150 grains.
I loaded a few with 3.5 of Bullseye and took them to the range today. Using my 3" model 60 Smith they held the X ring 18 of 20 shots at 30 feet on a man sized silhouette target.
Sorry, there was no chronograph available and I didn't save the target.
This is the best shooting round in that revolver so far. It looks like the first 5 will be the Modern Bond full meplat boolit. The speedloader refills have yet to be determined.
Quite possibly an RF style or a 358477.

[azrednek]

9.3X62AL I know from my X-wife being a cop with three different agencies before and about the era of mandatory change to auto loaders. The Silver-Tip was favored by many different municipal agencies. The state or DPS as the likelihood of penetrating a car door or windshield had other preferences. Two Smokeys I knew in that era carried 357 158gr JSN.

I thought in keeping up with times. Winchester made the 40 cal Silver-Tip bullets available to hand loaders but I never did see it in any other caliber. It now appears the 40 cal slugs are no longer available.

[HiVelocity]

Attachment 149822

These drop at ~150gr. I plan to load these for my .357 Marlin at 1500 or so. I think they would make a good manstopper also.

Just food for thought.

HV

[35remington]

After fairly extensive testing including modeling velocity variations I will throw in with a deeply seated WC being better than a solid SWC for serious use.

The problem with the SWC in a snubby is the powder forward orientation likely occurring after the draw.

[azrednek]

Shotstring, I've never found anything other than 40 cal Silver-Tip projectiles available to hand loaders. Do you know where I might find them, that is if they are still available??

Sorry didn't mean to go off track with the Silver-Tips so I started another thread here.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...80#post3387980

[shotstring]

I bought a thousand each of both the 38 cal and the 44 cal silver tip projectiles around 8 years ago or so, before they became ridiculously expensive and hard to find. Midway charges around 37 dollars for a hundred of the 38 caliber slugs when they are available. They are showing them as temporarily unavailable right now. My understanding is that Winchester makes runs of certain products just every few years and silver tips are one of those items. They should be back in stock sometime in the future, but at the price they charge now, not sure I would still buy them.

Incidently, Midway is showing loaded rounds of silver tips in stock in 38 super, 9mm, 40 cal and 45 acp right now.

[GabbyM]

I've found Hodgdon Universal Clays delivers modern level velocity from my 4" barrel 38 Special revolvers. Alliant's new BE-86 is advertised to deliver excellent velocities from the 38 also.

Crux of it is. With a non +P rated load I get near 900 fps from my 177 grain grease grove SWC. It's a copy of Lyman #358429. Actual weight is a tad heavier than the Lyman coming in at 177 grains from 2:6 alloy. Lyman's 4th list the standard pressure max load at 912 fps. My bullets extra 7 grains drops that to just under 900 fps so I'd say the velocity in the Lyman book is honest. Now the odd anomaly of a 38 Special is you can't get a lighter bullet to go much faster. I have 150 and 125 grain boolits. However when it comes to delivering the big smack on a steel plate or anything else the 177 gr SWC does the job. One thing the 358429 does is place weight out in the nose to leave plenty of case capacity. Which is why they don't fit in many 357 mag chambers unless seated up on the front drive band. I think the WFN designs are great also but I don't see much reason to purchase even more molds. Then as far as I'm concerned a hollow point only sacrifices penetration. Plain fact is with human male target you have zero penetration in these rounds to give up. Same true with a 9mm or 45 ACP. I'll plea a waiver on the 40 short as I've never popped a cap on a single round.
I believe in a good sized meplat and combination of velocity and weight for caliber. After you have that with accuracy you are pretty much there. Then you can polish your bullets or paint them pink. But they will not hit any harder.

Those inexpensive Hogue finger grove rubber grips fit my hand well allowing me to make hits on target far better than I've been able to with any auto gun. My 60 year old eyes can still focus the U grove top strap sight on a Model 10 S&W so it's my favorite revolver. Two out of six milk jugs at 100 yards is hard to take issue with when you are a modest level hand gun shooter as I am. Then I can rapid for double action a 8" steel swinger at fifty feet. Thus I've become very fond of my old surplus police revolvers. Simply put. My paper plates end up with more holes than when I shoot 15 shot magazine capacity 9mm. Other bullet I like very much is the Magma 150gr TC plain flat base. It's the most accurate I think. Although I have good and bad days so comparison testing is difficult. The flat nose is the same diameter as the SWC bullet. Thus small critters wouldn't know the difference in energy delivered. My 150 grain and 177 grain both shoot point of aim on fixed sight S&W's. Shot sequence on 350 pound man is this. Bring up revolver on your left of target leg. Then Hip gut,,,, chest chest ,,,,, brain. That's five shots. Leaving you with one to check for an accomplice. Trick is to use your revolver before they kill you with a number two pencil.

[Char-Gar]

Attachment 149822

These drop at ~150gr. I plan to load these for my .357 Marlin at 1500 or so. I think they would make a good manstopper also.

Just food for thought.

HV

If all depends on the alloy. Big hole HPs like this will shatter like glass if the alloy is to hard.

[Blackwater]

Gabby hits on something that I've noticed, with that lighter bullets not giving very much increase in velocity in .38's. This tells me that a std. vel. .38 needs a relatively heavy bullet for maximum performance. I'm looking at a 2" Colt pre-'72 DS that I may wind up giving my daughter in law once I carve out a set of grips for it that'll fit her rather dainty hands. I can't use +P's in it because of the metal in it, so I've got to find the best load for it at std. vels. It's a real jewel of a gun, and she's not into shooting, so I think a revolver may be a little better for her than the Kel Tec .40 I gave her some years back.

I'm still thinking about getting an LBT type WFN mold in @ 160 gr. for it. That should be enough, will reduce recoil a bit from a heavier slug, and as 44man's theory/explanation goes, that fairly sharp cutting edge on the front of the ojives should cut blood vessels and organs cleanly, and keep blood from clotting as quickly, which should result in incapacitation as quickly as is possible with a std. vel. .38.

All I have to do then is get her to practice enough so that she can PLACE those 6 rds.!

[35remington]

Blackwater, I have a lot of .38 revolvers that by construction must use standard pressure .38's and have some time ago concluded that the wadcutter is best to optimize snubby performance. This is after trying all manner of powders and especially given what happens to more shallowly seated SWC's and WFN's in terms of performance when the gun is drawn from a holster.

Velocity variation is the SWC's and WFN's undoing. Not for field use where the gun can be oriented before the shot, but rather for personal defensive practices where the gun may have to be drawn and shot immediately. If you don't like handloads for that a Buffalo Bore standard pressure wadcutter would be preferable to anything that can be assembled in WFN or SWC format. More meplat than either, and less ballistic downside in terms of serious velocity robbing variation from a gun drawn from concealment. Here the snubbies are especially bad.

[Petrol & Powder]

As for standard pressure SD loads for the 38 Special, If you can find them, Federal made a non +P version of the Nyclad. I have a box or two but unfortunately they are 125gr bullets.
It's all too easy to get lost in the tall weeds when discussing terminal performance of handgun projectiles and 9.3 x 62AL did a good job of pulling this discussion back onto the rails.
35remington, I don't wish to offend you but the orientation of the powder in the casing is of so little consequence in a self-defense situation that it doesn't warrant consideration in my world.
As for standard pressure 38 Special vs. +P; I don't advocate abusing guns but I don't worry too much about limited use +P loads in modern guns. That doesn't mean I will go out and shoot 10,000 rounds of +P cartridges in an airweight J-frame but it does mean that I carry +P loads in an airweight J-weight that isn't rated for +P loads and I don't worry about it. The gun will take it in small doses and has for well over 20 years. The difference between standard pressure 38 Spl. and +P is only 3K psi. I wouldn't be stupid about it but a good quality 38 Special revolver will take a few +P rounds now and then.
Now, that 110 gr +P+ load is something different all together. I would never use that load in anything other than a steel framed gun that was rated for +P loads and even then, only sparingly. I'm not a fan of light for caliber bullets driven at high velocities but that load does approach .357 mag performance in a 38 Special chambering. That load allowed LE agencies to tell the bed-wetting liberals that they were not using the evil magnum cartridges but it's about as close to magnum performance as you can get without that label.

I still feel that the 38 Special performs best with 155-160 projectiles and going heavier or lighter does that fine cartridge a disservice. If you can push a 38 special 160 grain soft lead bullet to around 800-900 fps and put it where it can do its job like 9.3x62AL said, you will be well served by that cartridge. A flat nose or a hollow point beats a round nose bullet everyday but the difference between a flat nose and a hollow point at those velocities probably isn't that great.



A big, flat nosed WC like Char-gar's clearly takes advantage of what a 38 Special has to offer. A LSWCHP driven to +P velocities is probably in the same league and slightly more speedloader friendly.

[35remington]

It most certainly warrants consideration in mine. Difference is I know what happens and I invite you to discover the same. The LSWCHP +P has been variously reported to expand or not expand when fired from short barrels and velocity is often 860 fps with powder rearward and drops to 750 fps with powder forward which explains why results vary. Handloads are similar.

The same happens with solid bullet SWC, but not with WC due to much less powder movement. If solid bullets are considered for defensive use the full charge WC gets the advantage over the SWC due to more meplat, and more consistency. The power level does not drop as low in the instance when the powder is forward. At this level penetration is around 23 inches of gelatin with the WC which exceeds any requirement in SD use including really really big people.

Since powder forward is the most likely occurrence in a SD situation it's best to model its effect and make one's choice based on what very likely will happen.

I consider myself informed rather than offended. What you said doesn't bother me because I've given the topic very due diligence and don't make these statements lightly. When the differences in orientation result in a 20 percent power loss that's a loss I'd rather not have in a SD situation........if I could avoid it.

So I will.

[c1skout]

I've been carrying standard pressure 158gn SJHP in my snubby, and my spare ammo is the Lyman 358495 over a moderate bullseye load. That old 160gn wadcutter is my favorite boolit so far from my 38's.

[Petrol & Powder]

35remington, thank you for your thoughtful response.

If I am firing a handgun at another human being because I have decided that deadly force is the only option left to me in the face of an imminent threat of death or serious injury.......I'm pretty sure I'm not going to care if my bullet is travelling at 750 fps or 753.09312 fps.
At that very small point in time I really want the gun to go "bang" and I want the bullet to strike somewhere close to where I am pointing the gun. The odds are that I will be very close to my adversary at that critical point in time.
If the bullet expands - GREAT.
If the bullet doesn't expand - but stops the threat - GREAT.
If the bullet severs his spinal cord, puts a big hole in his aorta or his left ventricle and then travels into the next county - GREAT.

Expansion would be ideal but whether the powder is forward or rearward is just not going to be in my mind at that point and; more importantly, the position of the powder isn't actually important unless that is the ONLY reason the threat continues.
Out of all of the things that can go wrong at that point in time that directly affect my odds of survival, the position of the powder in the casing and the possibility of over penetration are somewhere on the back of page 47 of things that can screw up my life.

NOW, that being said; it is wise to attempt to stack the odds in your favor.
In a perfect world the bullet would always expand, always penetrate deep enough and never penetrate too far. I'll take what I can get but I don't fault you for wanting an ideal outcome despite the fact that the outcome is always far from ideal.

[GabbyM]

35remington: What powder are you using that is so position sensitive. Sounds like HP-38/WW231.
Which in my humble opinion should never see the inside of a 38 case. But seams to be so popular. It works good for me in a 45 acp so that's where mine has bee getting disposed of.

[Outpost75]

When I worked in the firearms industry, I routinely fired pressure, velocity and accuracy tests during ammunition production. At that time piezoelectric pressure measurement was still under development and experimental, so we used the radial copper system. It was standard procedure to fire "base tap" with the powder towards the primer, and "nose tap" in which the powder was oriented forward, and to pool those samples of ten-shots each to compare with 20 rounds fired using the "SAAMI roll" in which the cartridge would be given a full 270 degree slow turn starting with the bullet nose at 12:00, then rotating clockwise until horizontal at 3:00 before inserting into the pressure barrel.

If the pooled base tap and nose tap samples exceed allowed specifications for ballistic uniformity required for the cartridge by the contract, that propellant lot would not be considered acceptable for those conditions of loading.

Military contracts often required these tests be repeated at elevated and suppressed temperatures to simulate desert, arctic or high altitude aircraft applications.

231 is one of those powders, which in my experience, experiences more lot-to-lot variation than others, which I find less suitable for use standard pressure loads in .38 Special, than others such as Bullseye, SR7625 or WST. It works fine in .38 Special +P loads and in the .45 ACP with 200-grain or heavier bullets.

But, if you are passionate on the .45 ACP, and are ever fortunate enough to find an 8 lb. caddy of WST, you will never, ever buy 231 again!

[Groo]

Groo here
For those with salt in there hair will remember.
The first reason for the hollowpoint pistol bullet was to stop bullet bounce and reduce penetration,
increasing effectiveness was secondary.[supervel ammo]
The Brits [ of the Empire time] used the pistol as a backup to the edged weapon [aka sword]
and much like SD use today.[keep them off you till you can stick em]
The bullet was heavy, usually long and SLOW [600fps or so], the Brits said
that if the bullet went too fast ,the target did not have time to react.
So the biggest mistake with this type of load is to speed it up.
HP bullets require speed to open [1000fps or so depending] where as the "man stopper "
loading needs to be slow so the long boolet is not stable and will yaw .

[DoubleAdobe]

I have been frequenting gun shops since 1972. When there, I always listen to the people who either run the shops or are there on a regular basis.
Many of these people have been LEOs or MPs at some point in their live and have stories to tell about what worked and what didn't.
Many carried the 38 special before the semi-autos became popular for police use. Many carried both at various times over the years. Listening to their stories is enlightening.
Not all of them will agree on what is the best load for a particular gun. What they do agree on is what will work well if perhaps not the best choice(they were often limited on what they could load their weapons with).
Nearly all of them agree that any hard cast boolit with a sharp edge to it(either wadcutter or semiwadcutter) causes massive bleeding and tends to drop a man faster due to blood loss and shock than almost anything else available for use in a 38 special revolver. The only other round that found consensus was a full charge 357 magnum loaded with 125 grain hollow points.
Since they needed to live or die by their handgun, they wanted to use what worked. They claimed the accuracy and easily handling characteristics of the wadcutter/semiwadcutter loads enabled them to put the rounds where they needed to and did the job they needed to get done. Usually they were not allowed to use the magnum loads, so they went with the wadcutter/semiwadcutter as the load of choice.
They all agreed that round nosed bullets of any construction were ineffective unless perfectly placed which in a shooting situation can be difficult.
Never having shot anyone myself, I can't contribute any experiences of my own in this matter. I do think the voices of experience I listened to had a lot of knowledge to share.

You talk and have talked to the same breed of cat I have. Those guys in my locale are getting increasingly scarce. But I 'member, ha.

[DoubleAdobe]

35remington, thank you for your thoughtful response.

If I am firing a handgun at another human being because I have decided that deadly force is the only option left to me in the face of an imminent threat of death or serious injury.......I'm pretty sure I'm not going to care if my bullet is travelling at 750 fps or 753.09312 fps.
At that very small point in time I really want the gun to go "bang" and I want the bullet to strike somewhere close to where I am pointing the gun. The odds are that I will be very close to my adversary at that critical point in time.
If the bullet expands - GREAT.
If the bullet doesn't expand - but stops the threat - GREAT.
If the bullet severs his spinal cord, puts a big hole in his aorta or his left ventricle and then travels into the next county - GREAT.

Expansion would be ideal but whether the powder is forward or rearward is just not going to be in my mind at that point and; more importantly, the position of the powder isn't actually important unless that is the ONLY reason the threat continues.
Out of all of the things that can go wrong at that point in time that directly affect my odds of survival, the position of the powder in the casing and the possibility of over penetration are somewhere on the back of page 47 of things that can screw up my life.

NOW, that being said; it is wise to attempt to stack the odds in your favor.
In a perfect world the bullet would always expand, always penetrate deep enough and never penetrate too far. I'll take what I can get but I don't fault you for wanting an ideal outcome despite the fact that the outcome is always far from ideal.

As LL likes to say, Shazam!