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Thread: Slow Twist for boolits??

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Slow Twist for boolits??

    Can anyone share some experience with loading .45cal 1:66 twist ML utilizing modern sabots or power belts?
    How can I expect them to shoot?
    I know that slow twist will not stabilize a long heavy conical, but this post is directed towards light and short boolits.
    For sake of discussion, lets say, a .45 sabot gas seal under a .45acp boolit. Will this stabilize?
    There is a .45 sabot offering which holds a .357 bullet.
    Since a patched round ball of .45cal weighs 135grains, then can you stabilize a 135gr .357 bullet in the sabot?
    there is also a .45-.40cal sabot offering, could you stabilize the lightest weight .40cal bullet?

    What about this combo to emulate the modern inline Powerbelts?
    Take a Lee .452-200RF cast of pure soft and load it over the gas seal of a .45 sabot (cut the petals off) , then stuff this over a heavy charge of FFFG.
    Will this stabilize?

  2. #2
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    I think MMP sells something called a sub base. its basically what you are talking about when you say cut the petals off. I've not used it but have seen it on another muzzleloading site. Works the same..load powder, then sub base and then bullet. I have shot some short light bullets in a sabot in my 54cal 1-48. Results were not terrible 2-3 inch group at 50yds off the bench peep sight.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master OnHoPr's Avatar
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    That Lee 145 gr SWC in .40 might work in the 45/40 sabot. Actually the 452-160 might work just as it is without the sabot (something like a Ball-et), but cast a touch harder than pure Pb, more like 75/25 or just hard enough to push down the barrel. I don't know about a heavy charge though, maybe 50 to 80 grs of powder. I don't think it will "emulate the modern inline Powerbelts" as they are for the faster twist barrels. If you got it to shoot with 60 or 70 grs of powder it would still give a bit of thumping to a broadside deer under a 100 yds. Though if it was windy you would have a windage problem.
    May you hands be warmed on a frosty day.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Given that carbines in 45 ACP and 45 Colt have twist rates from about 16" to 26", designed for bullets in the 220 to about 255 grains range, it would seem that 66" is pretty dang slow for a conical bullet. The current Marlin 45-70 lever gun has a twist of 20", for pushing a heavier conical at a decent clip, similar to the loads you're contemplating (original 45-70 meant 70 grains of black powder). That's a far cry from 66". You can certainly try something and see how it works, but the odds aren't great. With that very long twist, it is designed as a dedicated ball shooter, after all.

    Some of the Minie' bullets (hollow base, weight distributed toward the front) have been known to do fair to well in slow twist barrels.

    Depending on your gun's exact bore diameter, you may have a hard time getting a jacketed .451 or .452 bullet down into it. Maybe best to slug the bore and take the measurements first.

    Ain't nothin wrong with spearminting though.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Take a Lee .452-200RF cast of pure soft and load it over the gas seal of a .45 sabot (cut the petals off) , then stuff this over a heavy charge of FFFG.
    Will this stabilize?
    I don't think you'll incur a problem as I have heard others shooting a .454 boolit. That being said. Honestly. I don't know if a .452 will stabilized or not as I've never tried shooting either boolit the way you propose.

    As far as the 45 cal loading. I do own a T/C hawken 45 with a factory Round Ball Only barrel. I have shot Lymans maxi and a RCBS minie ball out of my 45 with both heavy and light charges of Pyrodex & Gorex 3-fffG.. And I have also shot theses having a sabot__ https://www.prbullet.com/ee.htm Non showed the accuracy I desired. So I then purchased a G/M 45 cal LRH stainless fast twist for the purpose of shooting other than P/ball. The PRbullet showed amazing accuracy. The others were so-so accurate at a distance of 100 yards.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    A fellow up north drew tags with his dad for elk. His dad has a slow twist .50 and asked the same thing. I had a bunch of the shorter 250 grn Lee REALs a member here sent me with the mold I purchased from him. I sent them to him and mentioned it likely needed a wad too.

    His results were pretty good at 50 yds but lost all reasonable accuracy at 100 yds. I figured with them being fairly short they might do well as they aren't much longer than a ball, and that's what determines how a projectile will work with a certain twist, though I think there are other factors too.

  7. #7
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    kens,

    Buffalo Arms once made a boolit called "Ballet" which was the same length as a round ball but flat base. It was designed to be loaded "bare" as in no patch. This boosted the payload weight somewhat over a round ball for a bit more down range energy and would be accurate in a slow twist barrel like your 1 in 66". A .45 caliber round ball is a much more lethal projectile than a 135 grain .357 pistol bullet within open-sight hunting range. Sabots in general do not work well in deeply rifled bores designed for patched round ball. If down range energy is a real issue (like shooting 400 pound boar hogs) and you are restricted to your .45 caliber muzzle loader, you might try loading 2 patched round balls. This load will give you 270 grains of lead and almost double the energy (and recoil too). Thompson Center at one time published 2-ball loads for their .45 caliber Hawken rifle. My experience has shown the 2 balls usually hit within a few inches of each other at 50 yards. This was a common practice 150 years ago when PRB was all they had to work with.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks guys, this is good info.
    I have a Tennessee poor boy flintlock (steel furniture) with a Douglas 1:66 from the heyday of Douglas ML barrels.
    I hunted deer with it many years ago and one got away from me due to my lack of experience & buck fever. I am now seeking vindication.
    I have heard of limited success with light conicals, and want to look into the new things like power belts and sabots as a way to 'hot rod a flintlock'
    Since the Greenhill formula considers a bullet length/diam. then a round ball is as long as its diam.
    The Lee .452-200RF is only a tad longer than its diam, I wonder if I could cast it soft so that it obturates like the power belts.
    The .357HP 125gr. is a short bullet, no longer than a .45RB, wondering if it could be launched out of a sabot.

    I pulled up a Greenhill calculator online, and it told me the .452-200RF would in fact stabilize with 1:66. Haven't tried to load it yet.
    Same calculator said my .50cal power belts will also stabilize in a RB twist of 1:66. I wonder how accurate this calculator is? I measured the power belt without all the plastic parts ( nose , skirt)

    Does anyone have a Lee .452-160RN that they can measure the length of that boolit??

  9. #9
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    you may get better accracy with a smooth bore. way to slow a twist for a bullet. 1/66 is good for a round ball 45. put a deer down at 175 yards with a well placed shot behind it once another at 125 yards. 100 grains of powder behind the ball and used pure linen for the cloth. the ball was .445. shoot them where the neck joins the shoulder in the center of that picture. will drop them every time.

  10. #10
    Boolit Bub Pyro&Black's Avatar
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    My 1:66 Traditions Shenandoah long-rifle shoots 180 gr. Precision QT Polymer Tip 50/40-cals (blue sabot) very well. Last distance I tried was about 75 yards, using 80 grains of Goex FFF.

    So try sabot/bullets 200 grains or less. The slender 40-cals fitted into a 50-cal work best. Short and fat sabot/bullets in 44/45-cal that are 180-200 grain won't fly as far / well.

    Go to prbullet.com and check the QT Polymer Tips and Dead Center bullets for 40-cal offerings to fit 50-cal MLs.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Funny you bring this up. I( have a Tenn poorboy flinter also but has one of those barrels made in Japan in 50 cal
    back in the early 80's. It is a real shooter. I tried a power belt in it a while back & it shot dam good. I never
    shot it past 50 yards though. The rifling does not seem that deep on this one though.

    Fly

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by kens View Post

    Does anyone have a Lee .452-160RN that they can measure the length of that boolit??
    Mine are .435

    Why not try the Lee REAL. 200 gr. How good of accuracy are you wanting?
    Aim small, miss small!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I just tried my .45 percussion rifle, 1:66 twist, with a 45/40 sabot, Hornady .40cal 155gr XTP. Shot quite well to 70 yards.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check