RPM Test; a tale of three twists, Chapter 2

[Tiger]

Runfiverun

Here is website I get my targets from.

http://www.oberlandarms.com/index.php

Ralf

[Larry Gibson]

Ralf

Like I said; you got me there. I read what I said and I was thinking of the last target you posted when I typed that just as I said. So you got me. Shall we go back through your posts and see if you've not made a mistake? Perhaps you should take heed of that Einstien quote before you are so gleeful to throw rocks over such simple and meaningless things.

But let's get back to your chosen subject here; your 4 posted targets. Let's see now, we have a 20 shot target that is 6+ moa, a 10 shot target that is 5+ moa, another 10 shot target that is 3 moa and then a 5 shot target that is 1 3/8". Yup Ralf, that sure is proof positive of "that rifle will shoot 5/8 inch groups consistently". So I guess you can go through those targets and pick out any 4 shot group (there's only 4 shots in your 5/8" group) of bullet holes that are 5/8" together and call that "consistently accurate"?

How about showing us five 5 shot 5/8” groups that are shot consecutively? That could be considered consistent. How about two or three 10 shot 5/8” groups? That could be considered consistent. Or how about one 20 shot 5/8” group? That could be considered consistent. No Ralf, I do not say you are confused (that apparently is your own assumption) I say you are claiming BS. Show us real groups that are a “consistent” 5/8” out of that rifle with that bullet at 2000 fps at 100 meters. Doing that will show us something. Claiming “consistent” 5/8” accuracy out of a 4 shot cluster from those 4 targets is BS. Had you fired another 5 shots more than likely that group would have been "consistent" with the others.

Hope you enjoyed your breakfast and the day. I respect your father’s service to his country. I won’t go any farther here as some will get very upset given the side he was on.

Larry Gibson

[Tiger]

Larry

Yes I got you. Okay I have to make up some more bullets then I shoot you more groups.

About the war do you not have the same problem with your country civil war where many from opposing sides are still bitter?

Going through much rain lately so when nice day come and I get loaded up I will shoot more targets.

Ralf

[felix]

I think, and hate to say, that the civil war now-a-days coming on strong is, not about the several southern states doing a succession stunt because of "acquired" aliens, but leaning more towards accepting "illegal" aliens. ... felix

[runfiverun]

Ralf
yes consistent targets are the way to go not one braggin group.

thanks for the link but i don't have a printer, i barely have a computer that works.
the one i use is built out of a bunch of old parts doesn't have sound and basically sucks.

most of the people out west never give the civil war much thought except as part of american history. [ even though my ancestor won a medal of honor in it]

now cowboy and indian stories are a different matter alltogether.

[Larry Gibson]

Ralf

Yes the "war of northern aggression" is still a hot topic for some. Coming from a western state (Oregon) even though it was a Yankee state I was referred to as a "foreigner". As runfiverun mentions most out here don't much think about it. Too bad as the Civil War is waht defined us as a country. Before the Civil war people would say the Unites States are...., after the Civil War everyone said; the United States is......quite a difference that one word makes in that context.

Runfiverun; speaking of cowboys and indians, let us remember it was the M1873 Springfield that made the West safe for the Winchester!

Thing to remember is that all who fought our CiviL War are dead as are mamost all of their direct decendants. Many of those here who fought the German Army in WWII are not dead. Also many here have vivid memories of the war years and the post war "discoveries" of what went on during the war. I recall sometime in the late '80s there was a reunion in Florida of the Marine Division that landed and took Tarawa from the Japanese. Someone saw fit to invite the surviving Japenese officer who was captured to be a speaker. When he got on stage he was soundly booed off the stage. Some memories don't fade and are not forgotten. I've a friend who had two uncles in WWII who both fought in the European Theater, one in the US Army and one in the German Army. He says the families of each are just starting to talk to each other after all these years.

I suppose that's why I won't return to Viet Nam...some memories don't fade and are not forgotten. Many of us could care less about "closure", "healing" and all that touchy feely stuff. May work for some but many of us don't want to kiss and make up.

Kind of off topic but that's ok, sometimes it's just nice to discuss other things. Shows we can be friends, eh?

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

i actually find it easier to disagree with some one that i like.
simply because it is easier to teach or learn from someone you can communicate with.
on an even level.

[Tiger]

Larry

I can understand the differences and feeling between the people divided by your civil war. Let me tell you of something most Americans don't have knowledge of. Remember the Wall divided Germany. Then finally the Wall come down. Because of this long separation there had become differences between the west and east Germans. There is now a dislike between them. The Russians took as much they could from East Germany and the people thus their economy is terrible. The West Germans resent having to take care of them. How long with this last who knows.

Do not forget there were and are many Germans that did not want that terrible war. They will often remind you that it was brought on from a crazy mad man from Austria. Remember too that there much difference between common soldier who served in normal service and those that were true Nazis and SS. Said more simple it was upper management that was bad. Nazis are very looked down on by Germany today. We feel a guilt of what the Nazi did and today the good Germans still have this guilt they much carry because of them.

So we put this behind us now and hope never happen again. If you take all empires and wars that have come and gone in the world and grudges are still held then no body like any one. Atrocities are made by all waring countries through out all of history.

Enough let us talk cast shooting.

Ralf

[Larry Gibson]

Ralf

I agree with everything you said.

Larry Gibson

[BOOM BOOM]

HI ALL,

Let me first say that I have not yet had a chance to read all of this! I started out on R5Rs velocity thread, then decided to try and find the original thread and read it.

First I want to say that this is a good experiment that should not be abandoned. But here are a few observations:
Firstly, The scientific method controls variables. It cannot fail to deal with them and still work. You must design the experiment to eliminate as many variables as possible or neutralize them by keeping them constant.
Larry, do not give up this research. This is valuable stuff. But I think we may have some uncontrolled variables which will take a lot of thought to figure out how to control or eliminate.

My second observation is that in order to be fair, one must admit when they haven't considered a variable that could be a causative factor affecting their results.
Let me cite my own experiment on case length shortening. This is regardless of pressure with lead boolits. I had a sample size of about a thousand rounds and got overall case stretching with 90% of the cases. I thought I had a definitive test design, but did not. As pointed out by other board members, I did not measure from the datum line on my 7mm-06 cases. This put my results into question because I was not able to measure this dimension.

I think that other board members here have raised legitimate questions concerning uncontrolled variables that might be alternative causes of the results that you are getting. Unfornutately, I can't offer any quick fixes for this problem without a lot more thought.

Don't give up! This is how the boundaries of human knowledge expand.

[runfiverun]

boom boom there is more see the thread i started called two twists. it intertwines with this one.
then there is the 6.5/w 9" twist thread.

[Larry Gibson]

Boom Boom

I am isolating and testing the variables. I am taking accurate measurements of any effects those variable have on accuracy at high velocity/RPM. That is how a scientific test is conducted. Before making judgement or forming an opinion, just exactly what are the "uncontrolled variables" are you talking about? Where did I say I never "considered a variable"?

In a test there are variables. Some of those variables we can't do much about such as the difference in rifling mentioned. However if that variable remains a constant throughout the test then it is factored in when, as in this instance, we compare the accuracy changes of each twist (type of rfling) on a proportional basis instead of direct comparison. That is controlling the variables we can not isolate and change. That is the scientific accepted method of dealing with those variables we can not isolate and change. I am dealing with scientific methods not witchcraft, voodoo and old wives tales as others are. That is what I've been doing with those variables I can not change. I am isolating those variables we have contol over and testing each one independantly of the others. That is how meaningfull tests are conducted. That is what the 4 antagonists here do not understand, leftiye in particular.

I appreciate your support for this test. However, don't let yourself get sucked into essoteric meaningless variables such as leftiye's .001" (or whatever it was) extra travel at 100 yards if a bullet hit 3" from the center of the group and how since I couldn't measure that then the test results were meaningless. I believe my responses showed how rediculous that was but the point here is we have to remember what we are testing for. Several are confused not understanding what a proportional comparison is (even after explaining it to them) and keep wanting to fall back to a "develope a most accurate load" syndrome.

We are talking 4-5 moa goups here (the 311291 at 2400+ fps out of the 10" twist) so if we test a vaiable and it shows a .2" smaller 10 shot group than with the base line load is that a signicant improvement? Given that if we shoot three 10 shot groups we may get a ES of a 1.5" difference between group size that .2" based on one group is not a significant increase in accuracy. If we were shooting .5" geoups consistantly then that .2" would be significant. In the case at hand it is not. Thus what we are looking for when isolating the variables is to see a significant increase in accuracy that is below the average group size of the base load. That is exactly what we see when we shoot the same 4-5 moa load out of a 14" twist and it produces sub moa to 1.5 moa accuracy. The only variable changed was the twist which controlled the RPM. There was a very significant improvement in accuracy. That improvement based on the isolation of RPM demonstrates that RPM is a very significant factor. If the other factors isolated and tested show no improvement in accuracy then the conclusion is that RPM is causing the inaccuracy. That is how we conduct a test, isolate variables, test those variables and draw the correct conclusion from the test. It is quite easy to isolate the variables we can control and test them. That is precisely what I am doing. I'll ask you to just pay atttention to the facts not essoteric concepts. During this test two of the long held concepts I've had have already been proven not correct.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

I am isolating and testing the variables. I am taking accurate measurements of any effects those variable have on accuracy at high velocity/RPM. That is how a scientific test is conducted. Before making judgement or forming an opinion, just exactly what are the "uncontrolled variables" are you talking about? Where did I say I never "considered a variable"? L.G.

Right. I've outlined all kinds of places where your test even hides variables instead of testing them. All of the factors that have always been known to cause inaccuracy, your test ignores. You may be researching the effects of rpm, but these factors that you refuse to consider should be considered in the sense that they still pollute your test. They didn't just take a vacation because you didn't consider them. That is what is meant by controlling variables. They must be neutralized so that they can't interfere, not just ruled out!

[leftiye]

However if that variable remains a constant throughout the test then it is factored in when, as in this instance, we compare the accuracy changes of each twist (type of rfling) on a proportional basis instead of direct comparison. That is controlling the variables we can not isolate and change. That is the scientific accepted method of dealing with those variables we can not isolate and change. I am dealing with scientific methods not witchcraft, voodoo and old wives tales as others are. That is what I've been doing with those variables I can not change. I am isolating those variables we have contol over and testing each one independantly of the others. That is how meaningfull tests are conducted. That is what the 4 antagonists here do not understand, leftiye in particular". L.G.

This would be fine - IF THOSE OTHER VARIABLES REMAINED UNCHANGING throughout your test. You have made no provisions for keeping them constant, nor have you any way of monitoring them to see if they have changed

Speaking of witchcraft, majic and voodoo; have you yet figured out how centrifugal force ALONE causes inaccuracy without causing instability? Remember, you say that ballistic coefficient monitoring controls for any differences in boolit stability. Now do you know what the .001" was about yet? Prunes anybody?

[Larry Gibson]

"You have made no provisions for keeping them constant, nor have you any way of monitoring them to see if they have changed"

I'm sure it's obvious to everyone that Leftiye has no idea what I do, what I've been doing, how I do it and how I reload or really much of anything. He has no concept of whether I control the variables or not. He is just making his own assumption based on his own opinions. If he would bother to read what I've written he would see how I do control the variables. He is still confused. Too bad, I've wasted enough time on him.

Leftiye

I have answered that question numerous times and you can't understand. Try the section in a Hornady manual. It has pictures, perhaps you can understand the pictures. Yes, prunes. They would relieve you of your problem.

Larry Gibson

[joeb33050]

Larry;
I can't follow this any more. How about sending or posting the numbers. Let the interpretation come later. I need the numbers to understand what you've done.
Thanks;
joe b.

[leftiye]

Duh, Larry, So if I'm mistaken then please tell me how you control for all of the factors that aren't being studied in your experiment which still pollute your results. Joe, nobody can follow it because it is two parallel lines , one asking questions challenging larry's test's validity, and the other larry feeding us more oatmeal that doesn't answer the issues and isn't even on subject as to what needed answering.

As 45 2.1 said, (to paraphrase) "The fact that you respond doesn't necessarily qualify what you respond with as an answer." This is 90% of the "answers" that you provide, Larry

[Larry Gibson]

Joe

I will get them mailed off. Sorry for the delay.

leftiye/45 2.1

Whatever you say.......

Larry Gibson

[kens]

Larry,
"RPM Test; a tale with three twists

Chapter 2; Test 1 [311291 of 2/1 alloy]"

What alloy is that, please?
2/1 of what ingredients?
Thanks,

[44man]

Nothing will come of all the tests. Variables will not go away.