Same here. I will use the CCI caps for something else. The Remington #10's go bang every single time in my ROA. I do also question the use of a C&B revolver for self defense...but to each his own.
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Same here. I will use the CCI caps for something else. The Remington #10's go bang every single time in my ROA. I do also question the use of a C&B revolver for self defense...but to each his own.
Well, maybe the location someone lives in has extremely restrictive anti-2nd Amendment laws and cap-and-ball would be a way around that?Originally Posted by fouronesix
[QUOTE=fouronesix;3368758]The "concern" about penetration out of a C&B seems almost irrelevant. The wisdom of relying on a C&B revolver for home self defense is questionable to begin with- IMO.[/QUOTE
I wonder after reading some of the baloney here why SAM COLT sold so many Cap & Ball pistols for so long, why the Texas Rangers used them in Indian fighting, and just why both goobermints spent so much buying them for the Civil War party.
You recon they might have used them to kill Indians and bandits, and cavalry troops and plain old foot soldiers as neccessary?
Every lawbreaker we allow into our nation, or tolerate in our citizen population leads to the further escalation of law breaking of all kinds and acceptance of evil.
Since almost all aspects of our cultural existence are LIBERAL in most states, this means that the nation is on a trajectory to dissolution by the burden of toleration and acceptance of LAWBREAKING as a norm, a trajectory back to the dark ages of history.
BvT
Few modern cars show the inventive flair of Henry Ford or WO Bentley, or modern ships that of the nineteenth century developers of the clipper ship. I suppose those users chose them as the best available. But it is very unlikely that they left them unfired for months at a time.
Looks like PURE PERSONAL SPECULATION ON YOUR PART about the unfired part.
There are American records of the care with which folks maintained their weapons. Our history tells us that those who did not occasionally encountered difficulties using their firearms or staying alive, or both.
As a young fellow I had the actual personal experience of loading up my 1851 Colt with pure lead RB, 22 grains of Curtis & Harvey's best, and putting it in the bedside table drawer for wifey to use if needed at home in my absence ( and she knew how to use it too). When I got back from the sweatland tour a year later I took that pistol out and fired every ball first time at the trigger pull.
I always had the thought that if I had to use that pistol it was not going to be for a warning shot, or a miss in the dark in the house, it was for self preservation. People coming in your house especially without invitation, are not seeking driving directions, especially if they have to break glass to come to you.. They would be up to no good. One would be silly to have a weapon for self defense and use a half charge. I had no other pistol at the time mentioned above. I can also confirm that a Navy Arms pistol as above will completely penetrate a fat groundhog and make the RB simply disappear somewhere in the ground.
I can tell too that simply showing a 1911 Colt once helped two persistent American road thugs decide that when you told them you did not need their assistance, it was time for them to go on down the road and find a fool elsewhere. I doubt that such display would help Europeans avoid thugs since they would not likely have a Colt of any kind, likely not even a picture of a Colt. Some how I even have the thought that in many places there only thugs carry weapons and one could be arrested for having a potato peeling knife at hand absent the potato and being in ones kitchen. But this latter is my speculation. I am sure that in England the possibility of reaching into ones bedside table drawer and pulling out any kind of loaded pistol is hardly likely, isn't that so?
BvT
Every lawbreaker we allow into our nation, or tolerate in our citizen population leads to the further escalation of law breaking of all kinds and acceptance of evil.
Since almost all aspects of our cultural existence are LIBERAL in most states, this means that the nation is on a trajectory to dissolution by the burden of toleration and acceptance of LAWBREAKING as a norm, a trajectory back to the dark ages of history.
BvT
I can appreciate everyone's viewpoints on this. I will say that my ROA, before a few cylinders of fouling from 777, and the 1-2/100 bad cap, runs flawlessly, and I consider it just as reliable as my 1911s I've owned. Anything can jam and you will lose valuable seconds at the worst moment. I don't understand the confusion about why someone would consider this an option. As long as it goes boom when it needs to, right?
It is quite possible that it worked just the way you describe, and that it would the next time, or for someone else. But that is just pure personal speculation on my part.
Wild Bill was certainly reported as having the actual experience of unloading and reloading his Navy Colts in the evening. It used to be common practice, in armies well supplied with ammunition, to fire off a musket volley on coming into camp, to make sure even the next day's charge was to be reliable.
Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 09-08-2015 at 02:29 PM.
Granted my Pietta NMA has only had several hundred rounds through it, it has run flawlessly with no cap jams, misfires, or hang fires and its sat as long as 3 months with Triple 7 with no discernible loss of power. It's been sitting over a year now, and one day I will report back on how reliable those 6 shots are. Living in a high humidity state (Texas) is a real test to that.
My ROA has been no less reliable once I began using Rem #10 caps. CCI #11 magnums often needed 2 strikes to ignite the charge.
Well in real life an 1851 Navy revolver with 20 grains of FFFg will shoot front to back on an intruder and will stop inside 2 out of 3 shots. A 50 calibre loaded with 70 grains of FFG will blow a hole clear through and leave a 2" exit hole and we never did find the ball.
personal experience?
More or less did the investigations saw the autopsy.
FWIW my understanding is that WB unloaded his pistols(.36 Colts) in the morning by firing them at targets, then cleaned, inspected and reloaded them to his standards for use during his awake hours, especially when he went to work later. I doubt they were NOT reloaded to far in time from the practice time. Cleaning one firing of a cylinder in a an 1851 is not very difficult. I would think he worked at that saloon more in the evenings to late times more than in the morning. He likely had to be prepared to shoot misbehaving patrons in a crowded situation most any time.
More business then maybe? On the next issue, it is likely that rodwha's old army Ruger was really needing # 10s all along and was not being fed correctly. Or it could of been like DIXIE'S old # 10 in the red plastic case that had the cups that were so thick and hard that many that bought them so long ago, just threw them away as junk. He describes a valid bad nipple fit with Ruger's proprietary nipples. I note that from the early 1960's when the Italians got into the replica business, many pistols were poorly made, with parts including nipples made to euro measurements. That caused problems especially with surety of working and dimensional nipple failures. Finding the correct caps to fit the gun's nipples has always been problematic over the years, especially as many small time American suppliers jumped into the nipple business with little understanding of Italian pistols, nipples and real fitting needs. I still often have to check and frequently modify nipples to have them behave correctly. The Ruger OA is the best there is of any modern C&B pistol though, although not authentic enough for some.
I mention this latter bit of chat because all these various dimensional matters gravely effect RELIABILITY of function, jamming, and failure to fire. Other things cause problems too, like fired caps not cycling out as designed. Don't be loading into a greasy cylinder for any length of time before shooting. If you want to put it in your bedside table for any length of time, start clean, the caps must fit snugly, the cylinders must be dry and the ball must seal. Ball grease must not melt, and you need to carefully cock and cycle that cylinder(not dropping the hammer) before storing safely and that's hard if you have youngsters about
BvT
BvT
Every lawbreaker we allow into our nation, or tolerate in our citizen population leads to the further escalation of law breaking of all kinds and acceptance of evil.
Since almost all aspects of our cultural existence are LIBERAL in most states, this means that the nation is on a trajectory to dissolution by the burden of toleration and acceptance of LAWBREAKING as a norm, a trajectory back to the dark ages of history.
BvT
There is no question about the effectiveness of a .50 caliber firearm loaded with 70gr. of black powder. But the British government stopped buying the Navy Colt, and Col. Colt closed the London factory in which he was making a much cheaper product than the British Adams or Tranter. One reason was double action, and another the fact that Colt hadn't yet trimmed down their .44 revolvers to the more manageable weight of the 1860 Army. But the main reason was that the Crimean War saw too many people killed after delivering the full six shots.
I don't doubt that it sometimes achieved instantaneous stopping power with a single shot. Just about anything does, and it would take a lot of autopsies to determine how often. But the .36 is very inferior in stopping power to a .44 revolver. I also don't doubt that an assailant was liable to die of something in the next few minutes. But that is a pretty inferior sort of self-defence. If you want a cap and ball revolver for anything but targets or small game, it is hard to see any reason not to prefer a .44.
Heh, reminds me of the funny looks in the mid seventies when the cops saw that I had cleared the house with a 1861. The intruder was gone and I was just as happy not to use the homemade boolits (Lee 9mm mold altered with a 3/8" bit).
[QUOTE=Baron von Trollwhack;3368830]people of that time used a lot of tools that required much more care maintenance and planning because they were the best thing available at the time.
if I pick up a self defense gun I want deep magazines and proven reliability that has gone hundreds or thousands of rounds without any issue , failure or miss fire I want it to do it at 95 degrees and 95% humidity and I want it to do it at -30
if I could get it without a ton of maintenance that must be kept up on it sounds even better
a brown bess was a great military arm , but it isn't so great when your one side with a Brown bess and the guy on the other side has k98 Mauser , likewise , the bolt action rifle in modern combat is relegated to what it does best long accuracy one shot at a time it has been replaced for infantry troops by arms that spend more time shooting the enemy and less time reloading.
when your shooting against other 1858 technology the playing field is quite level with a cap and ball but when you put it against 20th century defensive arms it doesn't look as good
most all handgun rounds are not that far apart for penetration and the energy they carry to the target most fall between 300 and 500 foot pounds of energy and depending on how you loaded a C&B you would fall in that same range with very similar penetration
weight , capacity , time to deploy , time to reload, split time between shots on target have always been considerations
the English used large caliber smooth bore muskets in the American revolutionary war , it fit with how war worked in their terms , a volley fire of the fasted to reload and hardest hitting round they had at the time was intimidating , the American's used the much smaller bore 46 caliber rifled barrel the common hunting arm of the time that saved on lead and powder with aimed shots and became the first to take an English general off his horse at 330 yards while he was "Safely" behind his troops out of range also very intimidating a puff of smoke from an enemy you couldn't even see that then strikes you at a range thought impossible, moral killer indeed.
use the best tool you have at the time , if for some reason that is a C&B because of availability , politics or some other reason then be the best you can with it make it as repeatable and reliable as possible , but don't confuse what was the best tool available 150 years ago as the best tool today because it worked then.
there have always been 3 kinds of stops
the mental stop ,they just decided to stop fighting for whatever reason it is no longer worth it to continue
the physical stop you broke enough bones or they lost enough blood they couldn't fight any longer
the neurological stop , you hit the brain or spine in such a way that they have lost motor control
Whatever you be , Be a good one
Pete ol buddy. You missed a lot of the info before my first post on the topic. You should have started reading at the beginning of the topic and followed what was going on. I think your history rant was a bit off the factual. But you are allowed here to be an .......... if that is your thing.
BvT
Every lawbreaker we allow into our nation, or tolerate in our citizen population leads to the further escalation of law breaking of all kinds and acceptance of evil.
Since almost all aspects of our cultural existence are LIBERAL in most states, this means that the nation is on a trajectory to dissolution by the burden of toleration and acceptance of LAWBREAKING as a norm, a trajectory back to the dark ages of history.
BvT
perhaps I did read that out of context , but when i read it , and I admit I didn't read it all the way from the beginning it looked like " a C&B are great because the rangers used them the army used them, they worked just fine to kill Indians and soldiers alike."
my rant was that they used them because they were the best thing going at the time , it doesn't mean their users never wished for more rounds or that they never malfunctioned or that the Indian or solder took hours or days to die
president Garfield took 11 weeks to die from being shot with a cap and ball revolver ,shot July 2nd 1881 he died September 19th, and from modern analysis he would have lived f the DR's of the time would have quit poking around trying to get the ball out bare fingered
so like any side arm they are not exactly a death ray , but a useful tool non the less
Whatever you be , Be a good one
President Garfield was shot with a Belgian made 44 calibre British Bulldog revolver. This revolver was not a cap and ball design.
Smithsonian file photograph of the British Bulldog revolver used by Charles Guiteau to assassinate President James A. Garfield in 1881
Home defense when your home and families lives are cheap IMHO
I love the past with a passion but, I live in the real world now. I use the best modern arms for that purpose with no regret.
http://www.historicalfirearms.info/p...james-garfield
The Gun That Killed US President James Garfield: Webley British Bulldog
A British Bulldog pistol fired by Charles J. Guiteau was responsible for the death of the United States’ 20th President James Garfield on 2nd July 1881. Guiteau had stalked Garfield for a considerable time, believing that assassination of the President would lead to a restoration of more traditional Republican values, feeling that Garfield’s Vice President Chester A. Arthur would be a more suitable President. It is believed that Guiteau was insane and had been previously committed by his family in the 1870s, but had subsequently escaped.
Designed by Webley the ’British Bulldog’ series of pocket pistols were incredibly popular. Their size ranged from very small .32 to large .45 calibre pistols, all had a solid single piece frame with a right-hand-side loading port. They could be fired double or single action and had either 5 or 6 chambers depending on the size and calibre, they can be found with both folding triggers and trigger guards.
Many Bulldogs were crudely made, rough looking pistols, the top photograph shows a more refined .44 Bulldog. Manufactured between 1875 and 1930 hundreds of thousands were made. The pistol Garfield’s assassin used was a Belgian made .44 calibre which he purchased for $10 (see photo three). Guiteau is said to have been surprised by the pistols heavy recoil and knocked of balance when he first fired the pistol as he practised shooting into trees on the banks of the Potomac River. The short barrel and powerful cartridge made the Bulldog difficult to control by inexperienced shooters. The pistol was inaccurate at ranges beyond 60-feet as it only had a front sight. Guiteau managed to get within 20-feet of the President in the busy Baltimore and Potomac Railroad station in Washington D.C when he fired.
Garfield was shot twice with one bullet grazing his shoulder while a second entered his lower back, just missing his spine and becoming lodged just behind his Pancreas. The President survived the night and remained alert, doctors were unable to discover the location of the second bullet but hopped that the President may yet recover. Infections from the probing for the bullet and from clothes fibres dragged into the body by the tumbling .44 bullet racked Garfield but he continued to hold on for over 2 months. He finally succumbed to his wounds and infections, which put a massive strain on his heart causing an artery to rupture, after 80 days on the 19th September.
Almost a year after he had shot the President Guiteau was hanged on the 30th June 1882. The pistol itself was taken from Guiteau on his arrest and was later donated to the Smithsonian Institute, who photographed it. However, it was subsequently lost and the pistol's whereabouts are still unknown.
http://www.guns.com/2013/04/22/briti...ket-revolvers/
Both Bark and Bite: British Bulldog pocket revolvers
4/22/13 | by Kristin Alberts
Stout and strong, these little revolvers are built like their namesake canine. With connections to a presidential assassination, an eccentric general and the Wild West, British Bulldogs may be the most collectible uncollected guns on the market.
British Bulldogs are cute but mean, bark with bite. I recently came across a pair of unmatched, but nonetheless beautiful Belgian-made Bulldogs, which made me wonder why I knew relatively nothing about them. The well-kept secrets of these dogs are finally off the leash, as the previously un-collected British Bulldogs are beginning an upward trend on the firearms market.
The British Bulldog revolver. (Photo credit: iCollector)
Lineage
The pocket revolver known primarily as the “British Bull Dog” was first produced by P. Webley & Sons of Birmingham, England, in 1872. Its appeal was so great that the “British” Bulldog was adopted and copied by gun manufacturers in Belgium, Spain, France and the U.S. Though American-made Bulldogs came from the armorers Iver Johnson, Harrington & Richardson, Forehand & Wadsworth, and several other makers who quickly went in and out of business, the Webley versions are rightly considered the real McCoy.
Though the revolver remained in production until the WWI-era, the hay day of the Bulldog was in the 1870s to 1880s, a time when it was known its affordability and reliability, consequently making it one of the most popular pocket pistols in both Europe and America. Though Colt is the brand we all know and love, and their single actions are thought to have fit the hip of near every cowboy, ranch-hand and gunslinger, Colt’s single-actions sold for three to four times the cost of the British Bulldogs. The inexpensive, yet solidly made little dogs — many of which survive as shooters today — were available to everyman.
Build
Though this little gun has had as many variations and names as it had makers, the general features are quite simple: a 2.5-inch barrel, five-round capacity, double-action trigger, and an overall true small-frame pocket pistol.
The British Bulldog field stripped. (Photo credit: iCollector)
Bulldogs are quickly recognizable by the bird’s head grips, generally made of either walnut or pearl. However, there are many fine examples with sweet ivory grips and delicate engraving. Most had a blued finish, but some nickeled models have survived as well. The revolver is generally dressed with simple fixed sights, a large looping trigger guard, curvaceous hammer spur and weigh in around 20 ounces.
Many European Bulldogs were chambered for .44 Short, .442 Webley, .455 Webley and .450 Adams, but there are several smaller variations of Webleys chambered in .320 and .380 calibers, though they were produced much later and were never labeled as Bulldogs.
Both the American and Belgian Bulldogs, which seem to be the most prevalent on the market these days, were readily available in smaller calibers. Perhaps the most common American clones housed .44 Webley and .38 caliber chamberings.
Famous ties
The Bulldog revolver has connections both famous and infamous in American history, as detailed George Layman’s book “The British Bulldog Revolver: The Forgotten Gun that Really Won the West!”
Probably the most infamous connection places it in the hands of Charles Guiteau, the man who shot President James Garfield in 1881. Though the wounded President lived for several months under the rudimentary medical care of the time, he succumbed to the pair of bullet wounds almost three-months later.
As the story goes, Guiteau was reportedly furious that Garfield overlooked him for appointment to a federal post and vowed to take vengeance on the President — and to do so with a good-looking gun, but one that could be had on a budget.
Guiteau is said to have used a Belgian-made British Bulldog in .44 caliber, but interestingly there is some debate over whether Guiteau got his wish of acquiring one with ivory grips. As rumor has it, he wanted his gun to look good when it eventually made its way to a museum, but the ivory upgrade cost several dollars more than the walnut model, which sold in the $8 to $12 range. The gun commonly shown as Guiteau’s model in period illustrations has walnut grips, but the actual gun is, in fact, long gone. Following Guiteau’s trial, the revolver was on loan to the Smithsonian, but, a short time later, the revolver disappeared and has not been found to this day. It is unclear whether the gun disappeared during its stay with the museum or sometime later.
Artist Frank Leslie’s rendering of President Garfield’s assassination. Garfield, center, applies pressure to his lower back as Charles Guiteau, left corner, is being restrained by the crowd and beaten with a cane. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)
In addition to the Garfield-Guiteau history, British Bulldogs found their way into the pockets and holsters of other famous characters. Gen. George Custer is rumored to have wielded a matched pair of ivory handled British Bulldog revolvers.
A British Bulldog may also have fallen into the hands of William Bonney, aka Billy the Kid, by way of his first employer and mentor, John H. Tunstall. Whether this gun ever saw any dubious service remains for great speculation, but regardless, the little British Bulldogs were as well traveled as they were well loved.
Collectability today
The large-caliber British Bulldogs, particularly the original Webleys, are considered both the most collectible and generally the most valuable. As the dogs were true pocket pistols, though often carried, the majority of them saw quite light use. While the patina on them shows the beauty of age, many survive in surprisingly nice condition today. Though British Bulldogs will never carry the fame or value of Colt single-actions, the dogs were cheaper yet dependable and thus available to the common workingman.
The British Bulldog fallen over, tired. (Photo credit: iCollector)
While exceptions certainly exist, the common revolvers can be had in the $75 to $200 range. Many Webleys or ivory and engraved models command prices in upwards of $1,000. Multiple British Bulldog models are housed in the NRA’s National Firearms Museum alongside Colts, Smith & Wessons and Velo Dog revolvers.
Filed Under: Collectibles & Novelties
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