Cap and ball revolver over penetration concerns for home defense

[Kulot]

Well, I'd like to know if anyone had info or could link to info regarding the safety of using a cap and ball revolver inside a home for self defense and the possibilities of over penetration into other homes, etc. I know cartridge smokeless round balls are known for over penetration and can travel far beyond your intended target.

This is not a question of the round ball's effectiveness as a tool against bad guys, just keeping the innocent safe.

If round balls are bad, and hollow points are better for this application, are there methods of DIY hollow points for cap and ball revolvers?

I'm using a Ruger Old Army. .457

Thank you.

[Fly]

This is a great video on just what you ask for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIPazOT5M3A
I might add in the video below he used 30 grains of powder. A 58 remmey can hold 40 gr,s.
Another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpIVLUQ9rk8
Fly

[mooman76]

Just use less powder. You don't have to go near max on the powder load, even 5 gr. would work.

[bubba.50]

Just use less powder. You don't have to go near max on the powder load, even 5 gr. would work.

that's my opinion too. the beauty of the cap-n-ball is you can load it down to any level you want. get a piece of sheet-rock & try different loads til ya get one that will not-quite or just-barely penetrate it.

[Kulot]

Thanks for the link, Fly.
Mooman76 and bubba.50- I wish I had a decent outdoor place to test this. You think 5gr would incapacitate a person but not over penetrate? I'd be interested to see this theory in action under a controlled environment.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

You need to review lots of information on the use of deadly force by real experts before you latch on to an opinion here about low power C & B use for self preservation.

BvT

[Kulot]

The question is not about the use of deadly force, it's about the ability of the tool to be able to perform how I want it to. If not, then another tool can be used. This is a question about safety.

I do believe this is an open forum, so I think as long as I am respectful, I can ask what I like.

[Good Cheer]

My tests with percussion revolvers show that a dead soft lead wadcutter in a black powder revolver will expand, will limit penetration and will make a real mess as dumdums so often do. Yeah, I know, so I found out the same stuff Webley did. But I had fun.
Please take my exhortation to heart; test them for yourself before staking anyone's life on it.
And please report your results. With lots of pictures!

[mooman76]

Thanks for the link, Fly.
Mooman76 and bubba.50- I wish I had a decent outdoor place to test this. You think 5gr would incapacitate a person but not over penetrate? I'd be interested to see this theory in action under a controlled environment.

I was using 5gr as an example not meaning it to be used. 5gr probably would put someone down good and even maybe for good if you hit them right but I would strongly suggest testing some loads. With that small amount of powder you probably will also have to use a filler because the ram on your pistol probably won't go down all the way to compress the powder or remove the air space needed. You don't want air gap.

[Hellgate]

Several times (4 or 5) I have kept a loaded C&B for either personal defense (under the pillow or in the headboard or bedside table) or for finishing deer (carried while hunting). The guns were meticulously loaded so as to have NO OIL or lube in the chambers with either the ball or conical. Caps (Remington #10 or RWS 1075) were carefully pushed onto the nipples. Then after 2 or 3 months I fired the guns dry to clear and clean them. I would not rely on a C&B as a life saver for me or my family. I do not recall where all 5 chambers went off with full power like they do when freshly loaded. If you have any other modern centerfire gun from .22 on up I would use that first. Only if there were no other choice would I go to a C&B. I've put over 25,000 rounds through my multiple C&Bs but after a couple of months of being loaded/holstered, or stashed I would not count on them to go off exactly as planned. Trust me, it's romantic to fantasize of stopping a perp with a C&B but if you have any other weapon use that one first.

Actually an AR-15 using .223 ammo will penetrate less than most pistol loads. The bullet fragments quickly. A lot of SWAT teams use .223.

[Kulot]

Thanks for the insight and suggestions. This came up after I watched a video about the .45acp 230gr ball ammo, and they mentioned the round being used for home defense, and how high the risk of over penetration was. I figured it would be interesting to find out the results for this older technology vs. the newer, smokeless stuff. I guess the interest just isn't out there...probably due to the reason some of you have stated: you probably wouldn't use it in this situation to begin with. Oh well. One day, when I'm able to find a place to test things out, I might just give it a try.

[Walkingwolf]

Doing your own testing is probably best, if all you have is a cap, and ball then it is better than a sharp stick. Personally I would not use one in the house for home protection. There is considerable smoke, and the flame could catch something on fire.

I have left cap, and ball pistols loaded for years. This year I shot them off over chrono, the 58 remy consistently got fps over 900. I have never had a cap failure. Yesterday I had my first primer failure 380 acp, from a new box of primers.

I suggest you do some research into over penetration stats in self defense shootings. It is your ****, and your responsibility, the ultimate decision is yours.

[RogerDat]

Shotgun in 410, 16, or 20 gauge. Shot don't need to shatter it comes out that way. Small shot loses momentum going through a couple of layers of drywall. Also since it seldom penetrates a human target it will transfer all of the force to the intended target and won't continue through to an unintended one.

Pretty sure the business end of a 20 gauge with #7 shot will deal with most unwelcome house guest, criminals tend to be stupid sometimes but suicidal not so much. Snick-Snick of a slide generally ends the encounter. Even the 410 is essentially pretty close to a 45 colt at least at living room ranges. But as shot won't travel through the next house.

[Kulot]

Thanks, I do have other options. This was merely a quest for information from others who may have the experience to answer the question.

[azrednek]

Story I heard from a former co-worker so I can not attest to its veracity. He claimed a mobile home fire that spread to others in the park. Was caused by a woman using cap and ball revolver in a self defense situation.

[Good Cheer]

With percussion revolvers the shape of the bullet nose (round vs. round flat vs. SWC vs. wadcutter) and the powder space remaining in the chamber with any given design are what make the difference.
Nobody believes the differences unless they see it for themselves.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

About all those videos prove is penetration in ballistic gelatin, and I wouldn't even be inclined to put much reliance on someone else's ballistic gelatin. Heating it just a little above the manufacturer's instructions in mixing can make a great difference to penetration, and the best of it gives only a comparison between bullet and bullet, which may be quite different in other materials. Human tissues are fibrous, and most building materials are compressible.

While a hollow point bullet may penetrate less in drywall board, wood, aluminium siding etc., I don't believe you can come anywhere near counting on that. As a defensive round they are notoriously prone to performing well in gelatin tests, but plugging with fibre from heavy clothing and remaining unexpanded in a genuine confrontation. Why wouldn't plasterboard do the same? I think about all you can say with near-certainty is that all pistol loads of considerable but not hard to handle power, including the .44 cap and ball, are pretty much alike in the matter of overpenetration danger.

I agree that deterioration of the load is liable to be a factor with the cap and ball revolver. Even with a cap in place, atmospheric humidity is liable to enter via the nipple. An old dodge in waterfowl shooting used to be slipping a piece of thin, soft rubber tubing over the cap (bicycle valve rubber in the days when bicycle valves still had replaceable rubber), but I doubt if it would work perfectly on a fluted cap unless grease or wax was used. Grease is liable to leak past the bullet from the front in a hot climate too, and contaminate the powder. The best results might be obtained with the Lee cap and ball bullet which has the rear band sized to fit the chamber easily, and the rest oversized for the rammer to size it down. This should work with a harder lube.

An extremely flat-nosed bullet would undoubtedly be more effective on an assailant and less likely (a little) to overpenetrate in buildings. The problem, if it is made for cartridge revolvers, to seat it straight in the chamber and yet have it tight enough for a good seal. Some sort of die and "shellholder" could no doubt be made to enlarge the first band behind a Keith-type nose or even FWC.

All this begs the question, why the cap and ball? If the reason is the ease of acquisition, there are antique cartridge revolvers and replicas which would be just as good, with rounds which wouldn't deteriorate.

[dondiego]

Make your first shot count because the smoke will most likely prevent a clear second shot, especially inside a small room.

[Petrol & Powder]

1. relying on some sheetrock to stop a round is pure folly. I just don't think you can, or should even try to, plan for that.
2. If I'm using a firearm inside of my house things have gone terribly wrong. On my list of important things I need to worry about at that moment, over penetration is somewhere on the back of page 47.
That's like wondering if your seatbelt will crease you new dress shirt after you accidentally drive your car into an oak tree at 45 mph. You've got bigger problems at that point in time.

In a perfect world the projectile would always stop your attacker.
In a perfect world the projectile would always penetrate deep enough to stop your attacker but never penetrate too much and exit the adversary, regardless of the size of the adversary or path of the bullet through your adversary.
In a perfect world the wall would always stop the stray projectile that completely missed your adversary or stop a projectile that went through your adversary.
In a perfect world you wouldn't have to use deadly force. We don't live in a perfect world. We have to do the best we can with what we have.

I think the concept of over penetration has been thoroughly over hyped.

[Walkingwolf]

Story I heard from a former co-worker so I can not attest to its veracity. He claimed a mobile home fire that spread to others in the park. Was caused by a woman using cap and ball revolver in a self defense situation.

The flame from a cap and ball is indeed intense.