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Thread: Mle. 1866 Chassepot Cartridge Construction - DIY Insanity!

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    Well. . .I can sort of think on how to make one of those:

    1. Fold a piece of cotton cloth in half and stitch the edge along a veeeeeery specific line. You might then turn this inside out, but I don't think it would really matter if the seam is on the inside or out - once trimmed and varnished anyway.

    2. Insert a forming rod, tapered at one end, that will stretch this cotton tube out to the required 13.5mm. This part makes me think it would be easier to leave the seam on the outside.

    3. Starch, lacquer, varnish, etc... the beejeezus out of it.

    4. You know that cork wad I'm using at the top of my semi-original Chassepot rounds - used for tucking the extra silk bag material into? use that same hole (or one of appropriate diameter) to center up your wooden rod.

    5. You'll need a hollow rod now that fits inside the tube and over that central wooden rod in order to compact your powder. Probably do this in several steps like you have been in order to ensure rigidity and keeping that rod straight in the tube.

    6. Place your primer and 13mm roundel much like we've been doing. We're possibly going to need the Xtra Large version of my Fiskars Oopsie Daisy cutter to secure that larger disk, or possibly use the 3M paper tape cut with pinking shears I explored in Post #7.

    Attaching the bullet to the rigid case would be the next question. . .I think I'm going to see what the Paris museum has to say before I dive into this pool!
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    Two factors stand between Ganidel and his nose growing like Pinocchio's. One is that in non-technical French they often use word "cuivre" for copper, or "yellow copper" is often used for articles that are actually brass (laiton"). In much the same way, especially in poetry, they often confuse iron and steel, and in English brass cannon were virtually always bronze.

    The other is that he wrote during the brief period when copper was used, generally unsatisfactorily, for full-length military rifle cartridges. It was adopted for the US .45-70 Government round in the year he wrote, and I don't believe the .50-70 used anything else before then. Westley Richards in the UK had patented a brass drawing process for cases which look rather satisfactory for black powder (patent 1572 of 1871), but I don't know whether they were in production by 1873, and they would have required hydraulic machinery which the French arsenals most likely didn't have.

    I meant, earlier, that a sort of central stalk of compressed powder might be used to make the cap stand up to the impact of the needle, in the same way as the narrow cardboard tube you mention. I agree that a complete charge in the form of a compressed pellet would probably be unsatisfactory. The British tried it for the .577 Snider, presumably copying the very large moulded grains used in the largest coastal and naval cannon, and found it insufficiently accurate. Subsequent grains for the largest cannon were sometimes plum--sized and pierced like rocket propellant, and a few, remaining unburned, were thrown out with sufficient force to cause severe injuries to soldiers on one's own side. I have never heard of accidents with the British pierced pellet for the Lee-Metford, loaded before necking the case down. But an unpierced pellet larger than the bore would surely be inconsistent at best, very dangerous at worst, and the Chassepot chamber is considerably larger than the bore.

    If the varnished case were intended to provide similar resistance to the needle impact, I think collodion would have done it better than rubber cement, and probably even stood up to heat better. I had another lucky accident after using the French Wikipedia to check up on just how Ganidel might have meant "cuivre", for I accidentally used it to look up collodion. The French version reminds us that modern caseless ammunition is actually coated with collodion (high-nitrate and energy-yielding I expect), and smokeless powder actually is collodion. It gets pretty hot if left in a hot chamber.

    One major disadvantage of the Chassepot system with any cartridge, I think, is the difficulty of unloading. But anybody with a background in firearms would have been more used to muzzle-loaders, which were worse that way.

  3. #43
    Boolit Man yulzari's Avatar
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    Continuing the brain storming.

    Ganidel refers to wood in that 'not a piece of wood was left in the barrel' in the testing. The only possibility of wood not having some role would be if this were a period phrase for there being nothing at all. I did consider if the whole prepared cartridge were dipped into something like collodian (or other 'varnish') to dry to a rigid but not solid column but he seems clear that the 'varnish' is applied to the cotton tube material.

    I do agree that technical and vernacular French often differ (though I am of the opinion that Ganidel was deliberately using copper as a poor example of a metal cartridge) and I recall having great difficulty in convincing my shooting colleagues that my Enfield Snider had an iron (fer) barrel and not a steel (acier) one as 'acier' has taken the place of 'fer' in everyday speech.

    They did go for a drawn brass case for the Gras and the Boxer type rolled brass sheet cartridge (of 1867) was being used in Belgium so there was no technical reason preventing a metal case. Boxer cases were cheaper than drawn and Kynoch was still making them for the Martini market into the 1920's if not later as a cheaper option. They even made a tinned steel version to be even cheaper.

    "When one is given the powder case, no cartridge for a military breech-loading firearm is easier and faster to make up than the Callebaut cartridge." This makes it clear that a pre-prepared powder case, in cotton, is provided to be filled in some manner and that a paper one might be substituted in extremis to use captured powder and recast ball.


    If only Ganidel had paid out for a decent woodcut!

    Unloading was via poking the cleaning rod down the muzzle. French weapons had no safety as they were only to be loaded upon the orders of the officer just before meeting the enemy. Like muzzle loaders the easy and dirty way was to fire them into the ground.
    Last edited by yulzari; 09-27-2015 at 04:40 PM.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by yulzari View Post
    Ganidel refers to wood in that 'not a piece of wood was left in the barrel' in the testing. The only possibility of wood not having some role would be if this were a period phrase for there being nothing at all.
    I'm no expert on translating much of anything, but my dad, who has some knowledge of French, had the following theory: Do you think it's possible that by "pieces" or "particles" of "wood", that Ganidel was somehow referring to carbon residue from black powder - which of course comes from charcoal, which in turn started life as wood?

    He refers to a "base wad", which I assume to be a cap at the front of the powder collumn which is glued to the fabric tube. This would be key in dragging the tube downrange.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  5. #45
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    It would indeed. If there were none, I don't think you could count on the bullet not being expelled from the part, allegedly cracked into strips, which was meant to function like a protective patch in the bore.

    The idea of that mention of wood referring to charcoal residue seems a bit doubtful, though. Charcoal in powder is very finely divided powder indeed - finer than most that is sold for powdermaking - and doesn't look at all like wood. It would be a pretty harmless sort of residue unless combined with potassium sulphate etc., as it normally is, and it would be left in the bore at least as much as the chamber.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master

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    I'm curious now if the Callibaud was using the same projectile as the 1866 round, and where the bullet was supposed to contact the throat.

    The original bullet has it's very pronounced, full-caliber driving band that would ultimately stop forward progress of the round in the chamber, assuming the taper of the bullet and its paper patch wrap don't stop it first.

    With the stiff-tube Callibaud, this driving band could be set back INSIDE the tube and the bullet glued in place on top of the base wad, giving a lot of surface area between on the sides and base of the bullet for adhesion. Also, since we're dealing with a 13.5mm tube and an 11.25-ish mm bullet, more conventional methods could be used to paper patch the bullet, rather than the Ku Klux Klan hat-looking, tied-on-with-string approach used on the 1866 round.

    On firing, the bit of cloth case jammed between the bullet and the rifling would pretty effectively scour whatever was left in the bore from previous shots. Since the tube would actually be glued to the PAPER PATCH and not the bullet, separation on exit from the bore should be no problem.

    If we have a bullet the headspaces on the nose-cone of the bullet - which the 1866 slug does - this approach should be workable. Also have an adjustable weight, paper patch mold with a hollow base for tucking the patch tail into. Hmmmmmm. . .
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    I doubt if the bullet was glued to the base wad, which really did have to always detach promptly or never detach. I think the casing was glued to the base wad. Indeed the base wad might even have been tubular all the way back to the rubber roundel, either rolled from veneer or drilled, in the manner that would soon be used for wooden bulleted blanks.

    We didn't seen in Ganidel that there was a paper patch, except in the event he suggests, that paper could be a substitute material. If the case was the way it sounds, I don't think there would be any need for paper.

  8. #48
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  9. #49
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  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    Those are very interesting pictures, and much appreciated. But I think all the Chassepot cartridges illustrated are the original M1866 (Do I see part of a date 1870?), and the elusive Callebaut version remains elusive.

    The most interesting thing I see is the picture which suggests that the cap was driven into the powder charge, remained unburst, and relied on the ignition flame from the rear, in the direction of only a small part of the charge. It this was the case, a solid roundel at the rear of the case would be undesirable, and the bursting of the sides of the cap preferable, provided that it happens reliably. Ganidel's claim is that compression of the powder is unnecessary when the cap is supported by... something solid, it is hard to tell what.

    The Dreyse cartridge drawings are also interesting. I think the version used in service is the acorn shape with small end to the rear. Ingenious as the papier maché sabot may be, I can't see it giving, and continuing to give after long storage, the extremely central location of bullet mass which is necessary in a rifle. The principle of frontal ignition being more efficient is undoubtedly true, all things being equal, but all things aren't. Do it with a needle and the needle is vulnerable. Do it through a flash-tube and the flame is cooled and pointing away from most of the charge, which is worse with smokeless powder than black. The Dreyse system which had revolutionized the battlefield since the 1840s, had dated badly, and for all the Chassepot's quirks was inferior to it all respects.

    Using modern plastic though, the Dreyse bullet shape and sabot would surely be perfectly workable. It might be just what the users of rifled shotguns are looking for, and perhaps even stay stable to a reasonable distance in smoothbore ones.
    Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 09-29-2015 at 10:10 AM.

  11. #51
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    SUCCESS!!!

    24 shots today with 100% ignition on the first strike. There were two different batches of 12 rounds each. The tubes for both were rolled with borax-soaked paper, wrapped with a layer of silk gauze, and had the rear rubber disk NOT glued to the percussion cap - rear end closed with the stick-on daisy, and it's petals held down with the over-layer of silk. Both used something very close to the regulation charge by volume, but of Triple 7. Yes, that's hotter than black, and again, I touched off the first one reaching around a block wall. Gun did not seem to mind in the slightest.

    The more successful batch used Gorilla Glue to attach the silk and had 0.4 of a grain of real black powder inside the cap. Ignition was instantaneous on all, and I found these on the ground about 15-20 feet in front of the muzzle:
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	150310 Very largely intact pieces of cartridge casing with silk and daisy sticker still attached. Most of these had the cap assembly sucked out of the bore. One or two even managed to get the rubber disk out, but for the most part, that was still left behind on the bolt head or in the chamber.

    The second batch of rounds had no powder inside the caps. Most of these had a VERY slight delay between strike and boom - about what you might get from a well tuned flintlock, maybe a bit faster. The silk was attached to these with good old Elmer's schoolroom glue. These did not do nearly as well at clearing debris from the bore, and I had to poke a patch to get the caps and a couple catridge body chunks out.

    Accuracy is going to take some work. With the sights on the lowest setting, it's hitting about 10" or more high at 100 yards, which could be worked with if the gun wasn't ALSO hitting a couple feet to the left. If this gun has a provision for windage, it hasn't made itself known yet. Not going to do anything permanent to the sights until we generate a load that actually GROUPS and gives decent chrono data.

    As to the gun itself, my home-made bicycle spoke needle worked flawlessly and held up fine. The silicone obturator sealed perfectly, although it may have a slight bug to work out:

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    The problem seems to be that as the chamber gets fouled, rounds do not insert as easily. Since you then have to shove harder on the bolt to get the round to chamber and the bolt to close, the bolt head gets pushed back and the obturator obturates. I think the rear of the obturator got steadily scissored off between the chamber and the face of the bolt body. Now that the problem section has been removed, I doubt it'll be a problem from here on out. The rest of it appears to have held up fine.

    Regarding the Callibaud round: I received an automated reply from the Paris museum several days ago stating that they had received my email and that a reply would be forthcoming. Still waiting on that. I've got a couple more archival contacts I'm going to try rolling the dice on.

    Rifle deer season starts in 8 days, so this will be the last of the shooting reports for at least a month, but I'll be here for the discussion and data updates as they come.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    SUCCESS!!!

    24 shots today with 100% ignition on the first strike. There were two different batches of 12 rounds each. The tubes for both were rolled with borax-soaked paper, wrapped with a layer of silk gauze, and had the rear rubber disk NOT glued to the percussion cap - rear end closed with the stick-on daisy, and it's petals held down with the over-layer of silk. Both used something very close to the regulation charge by volume, but of Triple 7. Yes, that's hotter than black, and again, I touched off the first one reaching around a block wall. Gun did not seem to mind in the slightest.

    The more successful batch used Gorilla Glue to attach the silk and had 0.4 of a grain of real black powder inside the cap. Ignition was instantaneous on all, and I found these on the ground about 15-20 feet in front of the muzzle:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20151002_104640.jpg 
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ID:	150310 Very largely intact pieces of cartridge casing with silk and daisy sticker still attached. Most of these had the cap assembly sucked out of the bore. One or two even managed to get the rubber disk out, but for the most part, that was still left behind on the bolt head or in the chamber.

    The second batch of rounds had no powder inside the caps. Most of these had a VERY slight delay between strike and boom - about what you might get from a well tuned flintlock, maybe a bit faster. The silk was attached to these with good old Elmer's schoolroom glue. These did not do nearly as well at clearing debris from the bore, and I had to poke a patch to get the caps and a couple catridge body chunks out.

    It might be that a slightly harder silicon rubber would do better for the obturator, for expansive pressure is something you are not short of. Silicon gasket mixed with chopped nylon fibres might be worth a try.
    Accuracy is going to take some work. With the sights on the lowest setting, it's hitting about 10" or more high at 100 yards, which could be worked with if the gun wasn't ALSO hitting a couple feet to the left. If this gun has a provision for windage, it hasn't made itself known yet. Not going to do anything permanent to the sights until we generate a load that actually GROUPS and gives decent chrono data.

    As to the gun itself, my home-made bicycle spoke needle worked flawlessly and held up fine. The silicone obturator sealed perfectly, although it may have a slight bug to work out:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	150311 Click image for larger version. 

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    The problem seems to be that as the chamber gets fouled, rounds do not insert as easily. Since you then have to shove harder on the bolt to get the round to chamber and the bolt to close, the bolt head gets pushed back and the obturator obturates. I think the rear of the obturator got steadily scissored off between the chamber and the face of the bolt body. Now that the problem section has been removed, I doubt it'll be a problem from here on out. The rest of it appears to have held up fine.

    Regarding the Callibaud round: I received an automated reply from the Paris museum several days ago stating that they had received my email and that a reply would be forthcoming. Still waiting on that. I've got a couple more archival contacts I'm going to try rolling the dice on.

    Rifle deer season starts in 8 days, so this will be the last of the shooting reports for at least a month, but I'll be here for the discussion and data updates as they come.
    That sounds pretty good. Shooting that much high at 100 yards is quite common in rifles of the period, or some non-shooting collector may have "repaired" a damaged front sight. You might be able to build up the front sight with a piece of tape and car body epoxy. You could either do it enough to epoxy a piece of notched plastic to the rear sight, or cover it with white gummed label and use an ink line for sighting.

    Clearly some powder inside the cap is the right way to go if it doesn't damage the rubber roundel or foul the needle. You might get more heat from a fine smokeless pistol or shotgun powder.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master

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    Fouling on the needle seems to be the least of our worries. The rubber roundel does a pretty good job of limiting blowback into the bolt head, plus it and the bolt head scrape off any larger chunks as either the roundel goes downrange or as the needle is recocked back into the bolt head.

    The bore seems to be doing fine with the paper patch soaked with Ben's Liquid Lube. Fouling in the CHAMBER is the Achilles heel at this point - even with Triple 7 as the propellant. 3-4 shots was about all we could ask before having to scrub the chamber with a stiff nylon brush, yielding significant black chunks of crud. Not really a combat-ready system with what we've developed so far.

    Specs for the firing pin spring have been sent off to Wolff to see if they have something that will work for us as a spare. To be continued!
    Last edited by Bigslug; 10-04-2015 at 06:27 PM.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  14. #54
    Boolit Man yulzari's Avatar
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    Firing high at 100 metres is indeed common for rifles of this period. There are usually two possible causes (assuming the charge etc. are correct). One is being regulated for firing with the bayonet fixed. After all the enemy is only some seconds away at a fast trot. The other is that period rear sights were often possessed of a very large and deep 'V'. If you line up the tip of the front sight with the top of the rear sight (a 'full' sight) then the barrel is raised for a shot at 100 metres. If you line up the tip with the bottom of the 'V' (a 'fine' sight) then the muzzle is depressed for a shot at 50 metres. This system (for a well trained soldier) allowed the sights to be used for distances intermediate to the rear sight settings. If you are using a full sight then try a fine sight.

  15. #55
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    It could get worse. The Martini-Henry (and the Portuguese Guedes) had a side-mounted bayonet, which caused the bullet to be dispatched quite some way sideways. It was less than helpful when the enemy was coming at you with sharp and unhygenically kept choppers of native make. Not only that but with the Martini there were numerous bayonets, of different weight. I believe the logic was that a proper rifle ought to have a cleaning-rod where the muzzle-loader ramrod ought to be.

    The Portuguese Kropatschek, adopted when they decided to cut their losses on the Guedes before issue, had a side cleaning rod, but many surviving ones have the hole breaking out through the stock wood near the rear of the barrel. I believe some Austro-Hungarian rifles had an auxiliary sight blade on the attachment ring of the bayonet, to compensate for its effect. The story of the Franco-Prussian war is one of inspired military technology undone by failures of organization. It must be a comfort to know there were worse cases.

  16. #56
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    I've been playing with a Chassepot for about a year now.
    I've found that the OAL(over all length) of the case, is the most important thing for consistent firing.
    Getting good results with 3f black powder. Worked better than 2f.
    Case is 1/2" diameter.
    Using thin brown wrapping paper for the case. Index file card for the base.
    Musket cap with a toy cap inside, and a little 4f before gluing it to the base.
    I've found that the powder needs to be pressed down enough to make the case stiff.
    I put another base card over the powder and fill with cream of wheat until I get the correct OAL.
    I think the paper burns up in barrel. Chamber is clean except an occasional toy cap stuck to the bolt.
    I've looked for paper on the ground, but never found any.
    I get 90% or better let off.
    Most of the time accuracy is 4" to 6" at 100yds.
    Most I've fired was 20rounds before cleaning the barrel.
    Another thing I've learned is to spray the needle and parts with garage door dry lube.
    It keeps the needle from getting stuck from the black powder fouling.
    These rifles are really fun to shoot.

  17. #57
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    In reading through this thread the past couple of days, it seems to me you guys are having better luck when you add a booster charge to the percussion cap; which makes sense when you look at the differences between the original priming charge and the current one.

    Just guessing here, but I think the original primer was probably either mercury fulminate or potassium chlorate, while the readily available ones now are lead styphnate. I don't remember offhand the difference in brisance between the three, but it seems likely the lead styphnate is quite a bit slower, i.e. less powerful.

    Robert

  18. #58
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I've noticed that without the toy cap and 4F, I get maybe 50% let off.
    Without the toy cap, I've had the needle go through the musket cap without it going off.
    I don't know if this is true, but I've heard that musket caps are not a powerful as before.
    Something about someone getting killed at a reenactment.
    Guy doing the shooting claimed the "to powerful" caps were to blame, not his shooting a someone.

    The toy caps I use are plastic, come in a ring to use on a revolver.
    Need to be cut apart.
    They fit good in the musket cap.
    A add a little 4f just as extra.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master

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    As to the power of musket caps, do we actually know for certain that the Chassepot rounds were in fact using a straight-up regulation Minie system cap, or if they cooked up something special for the task? All standard caps had/have to do was/is blast a jet of flame forward and down a nipple that they're placed in contact with. A Chassepot is firing the cap BACKWARDS, bouncing the blast off a rubber-shielded bolt head, causing it to rupture the sides of the cap. It seems that given the extra steps, the logical course in the 1860's would have been to use the standard cap production equipment that already existed, and simply pour a larger quantity of "boomy stuff" inside.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  20. #60
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    Funny thing, as I was poking around on youtube this morning (couldn't sleep, back was hurting) I found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi47hIRi3b0

    Seems like he is using more FFFFg than I see mentioned here, but on at least one of his videos he claims 100% ignition. Hope it helps some of you.

    Robert

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check