Mle. 1866 Chassepot Cartridge Construction - DIY Insanity!

[salpal48]

I have Been Trying To make Chassepot Cartridges For Years with mixed Results. I have used many different so called methods.. my last and Best results was useng standard shotshell Primer then glue them to The Board backer 777ff. My result were appox 50% Firing. It took me several different try's to Get to that. . . The tube I have been making are appox 12mm in Dia. using 3m pressure sensitive
again > Insanity post-its . . There was a Co online selling preformed Kits. but were always Out of stock and In Europe . No longer have the site But they advertise .

[Bigslug]

Salpal48,

Pretty early in the game for me, but I think the cure for failed ignition is going to be cartridge rigidity paired with correctly establishing headspace for the rounds. There's plenty of "pop!" in the original musket caps - they just need enough resistance from tightly packed powder to not shove forward when hit by the striker.

[yulzari]

Salpal48,

Pretty early in the game for me, but I think the cure for failed ignition is going to be cartridge rigidity paired with correctly establishing headspace for the rounds. There's plenty of "pop!" in the original musket caps - they just need enough resistance from tightly packed powder to not shove forward when hit by the striker.

That is the trick of it and is why the primer is fixed to it's surrounding disk. To make the needle push against the whole base of the powder. Not just that above the primer cap. You still need to pack the BP in firmly in 2 or 3 pours with packing down in between. I pop mine into a hole to the outside diameter of the powder tube so that I can pack it in firmly without causing bulging.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That sounds like the answer to the misfiring problem. The problem is to get better support without more trouble, and without even more unburnt bits and pieces to be left in the bore. But here is another idea which might help. If you were to press slightly damp black powder into a simple die, possibly with large-diameter, thin plastic drinking straws, I think you could make hard, slightly porous rods of of black powder. That could be used to support the cap, and yet as others used something similar for the complete charge, I think it would be entirely consumed.

If I could get reliable ignition of the cap, I would be reluctant to leave off putting a little powder inside it. The heat of the cap's flame builds up very quickly and dies very quickly, and it used to be possible to ignite guncotton without igniting black powder grains laid on it. The flame, although hot, was simply too brief. I also experimented with the piezo-electric igniter from a defunct blowtorch, and found the the tiny lightning-bolts, far briefer than the human eye makes them seem, failing to ignite coarse black powder grains which they struck.

You say the cap has to blow out its sides to reach the powder. That must impose an almost inconceivably brief delay, and perhaps cooling. I would feel more confident if the more protracted combustion of black powder were already commenced.

[Bigslug]

If you were to press slightly damp black powder into a simple die, possibly with large-diameter, thin plastic drinking straws, I think you could make hard, slightly porous rods of of black powder.

That is an interesting idea. We've been thinking that the whole Pyrodex Pellet concept would be ideal if you could make them the same diameter as the .45 caliber wads. I'm not sure how Hodgdon Triple 7 would behave under such treatment. There's technically no reason we couldn't use real BP, other than it being too much of a hassle to bother with in CA.

If I could get reliable ignition of the cap, I would be reluctant to leave off putting a little powder inside it. . .

One of many questions yet to be resolved, and why we're not turning these things out in batches larger than about 20-30 yet. This latest batch was poured down a two foot drop tube prior to manual compression - hopefully that's tight enough. We'll know in about 2 weeks.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A vibrator might assist in compression of the powder. I am pretty sure you can buy them, but any small electric motor with an off-center weight on the shaft should be as good. Otherwise I think Yulzari has the right idea in compressing several small layers. If you compress the lot at once the surface will be compressed more than what lies underneath, and probably to varying depths.

[yulzari]

Beware moulding damp BP into a single propellant. There are ignition propagation and pressure issues. It was researched closely in Switzerland in the 1880s (and they went straight for smokeless in their 7.5mm) and that research underpinned the British, Austrian and Danish small bore solid BP rounds and was also examined in the USA. The solid rods were not to increase the quantity of BP packed into the small bottleneck cartridges but as a means of controlling the rate of burn by offering a known surface area of burn and a known change of area as the burn progressed. The British .303 used a small hole in the centre of the rod and the clue is that, despite the care, the maximum pressure was still more than in the succeeding cordite rounds. The Austrians used the outer surface of their solid rod. If you look at the published work upon solid fuel rockets you can see how they use the form of the solid fuel to adjust the rate and area of burn. Had the world continued with black powder for infantry guns we would have seen much of the same research applied to rifle round black powder.

I offer no recommendation but I have wondered about 'dampening' coarse BP with a thin shellac/alcohol mix to glue the large grains together whilst leaving the gaps open once the alcohol evaporates, thus leaving one with a stick of BP. Not something to experiment with using rifles of unknown history and more than 140 years old!

They did put two holes in the early Chassepot primer caps but it was found unnecessary in service.

The Holy Grail of Chassepottery is still the mystical Callebaud cartridge.

[Bigslug]

Yulzari,

I guess serious Chassepoteers have yet to discover the Internet, as the search for "Callebaud cartridge", led to links for printer ink cartridges, Callebaut chocolate, and your footprints. Funny how we can dig up more information on the dusty corpses of the first Egyptian Pharoahs of 4,000-5000 years ago than we can on the REALLY INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT STUFF. . . like rifle technology that was used for only about ten years in the mid 19th Century.

As it was an unsuccessful competitor to the metallic Gras round, it is unlikely that whatever Callebaud concocted ever made it very far out of France. I think your best shot would be to scour the country for various arms museums and see if you can find the French equivalent of Ian Hogg working in the basement of one of them. There are exactly TWO kinds of people that would have any interest in a detailed analysis of Chassepot ammunition types - those of us who shoot Chassepots and museum curators. It may be time for the former to seek out the latter.

Dad texted and said the 1/2" silicone rubber sheet for making obturators arrived at his doorstep yesterday. The challenges before us will be (1.) to cut it cleanly with out 18mm circle punch; (2.) center the hole through the middle of it cleanly; and (3.) thin the material down from the starting 0.5" to the necessary 0.4". Headed over later to drop off some range scrap - possible pics tonight.

[downunderrunner]

just got myself one of these ladies, and found some EXCELLENT resources online:

http://www.murpheysmuskets.com/store...ading_Die.html

http://www.murpheysmuskets.com/store...r_seal%29.html

and of course, the joys of youtube!! Murphy's muskets on there is a good source for info, and there are some others doing interesting things to get these old girls smoking again!

i'm going to trythe 85grain charge next, as the 70 as originally suggested isn't doing a durn thing for accuracy or extracting the paper "case"!

[Bigslug]

On today's episode of Chassepot Madness: Obturator Fabrication!

But first, Percussion Cap Powder Scoop:
Dad had the idea of soldering a .22 gas check onto a chunk of solid core copper wire. Filled with Triple 7 and scooped flush, he says it holds 0.4 of a grain. The key to accuracy being uniformity, this should come in handy if in fact we determine that powder inside the caps is a necessary thing.

On to obturators. Some trial and error - still ongoing - but here's how it panned out:

We determined that the thing to do was punch the 8mm center hole through the silicone first. We backed the silicone with a wood block and used a drill press ram to push the punch through smoothly.

The next question was "How do we center that 8mm hole within the 18mm punch to make the outside diameter?" Well, you may recall that I ended up with a professionally fabricated rubber obturator to use as a template, sooooo. . .
Step 1 was to insert the template obturator into the 18mm punch. Into its center hole I inserted an 130 grain LBT .3205" diameter FN boolit I cast for my Martini Cadet. That boolit serves to center the punch on the 8mm hole in the silcone as the drill press drives it through. Still got some bugs to work out in terms of getting a straight cylinder out of such a thick piece of silicone. . .

Next up was to reduce the thickness of the silicone from 0.50" to 0.40".
We drilled a hole into a wood block deep enough that the template obturator would fit flush, the used that block to hold the silicone obturator-to-be against a 1" benchtop belt sander. Some kinks to work out here too, but the trick to getting a square cut is to proceed gently and check often.

We finished up the evening with one really good one and a couple more that are probably usable. This silicone should be impervious to any solvents, and is a little softer than the black rubber, so should seal well. Hopefully, it's the last obturator the gun will ever need, but would like to get the process perfected regardless.

Finally, the Forest of (we hope to be) Joy:

[yulzari]

Well done you and your Dad. If it works a production line should find customers. I saw one original that was probably red and others in black. At the time carbon (black), iron oxide (red) and slate dust (grey) were all used as fillers in vulcanised natural rubbers generally, as a check on early bicycle tyres will demonstrate. So your red silicone has some plausibility. Still using tap washers myself.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ah, the Tower of Babel has a lot to answer for! I thought to try a search for "cartouche Callibaud", but a million years ago when the world was young, I was able to take dictation from French to the international phonetic alphabet. This enabled me to make what we language experts term a mistake, but a lucky one. Lacking the advantages of the intelligent layman I entered the identically sounding "Cartouche Callibaut", which got me this document Being a picture of text it doesn't respond to Google Translate. I ended up paying 99 euro cents to download it, and it might be due to some sort of malfunction that without paying I could only read the first part, which is rather irrelevant to the Callebaut cartridge, but interesting on the Chassepot.

http://www.youscribe.com/catalogue/livres/litterature/notice-sur-les-cartouches-pour-armes-de-guerre-et-notamment-sur-la-2233569

It confirms that the cartridges took a downturn in functionality when production was expanded to numerous unaccustomed workshops during the Franco-Prussian War (which doesn't bode well for the soldier himself doing it)and that the cap and base disc used to get left in the bore. They also say that the part-melted rubber roundel sometimes got into the firing-pin channel and impeded the movement of the pin, but in those days that would have been natural rubber from rubber-trees, and although they were good at vulcanizing it into vulcanite or ebonite, they weren't good at intermediate degrees of hardness.

In what I now have, the Callebaut section begins on page 25. I translate from there, without necessarily endorsing all the say. They make it sound quite amazingly good, which begs the question why almost nobody, notably us,ever used it. I am sure a rigid but combustible case would indeed offer great advantages, but I can't see it warding off what actually happened, namely the adoption of the metallic 11mm. Gras.

"Among the cartridges requiring no modification of the Chassepot rifle, there figures the Callebaud cartridge, known as the expelled case.

The function of this cartridge is completely different from that of combustible and metallic cased cartridges: the rigid case is projected out of the barrel and falls some paces from the firer.

It is due to this function of the base tube that the cartridge is termed expelled case.

This cartridge unites all the advantages of combustible and metallic cased cartridges, without their disadvantages. To demonstrate this we will take one by one the qualities required for military weapons, and we will see that the new cartridge fulfills, better than any other, all these requirements.


Storage of the cartridge

The jaconas fabric being rendered impermeable by means of a suitable varnish, the new cartridge can safely be completely immersed in water for some time, without the powder or the fulminate of the cartridge being affected by damp. This cartridge therefore has nothing to fear from the crossing of a river, not from storage in a damp magazine. The powder is in contact with the walls of the tube which, by its material, can neither cause nor suffer deterioration.

It therefore follows that where storage is concerned it is superior both to the Model 1866 cartridge and to cartridges with metallic cases.

Regularity, speed, safety and accuracy of fire

The regularity of firing movements is perfect. The official experiments made at St.Médard have demonstrated that no particle of wood remains in the chamber; the only residues of this cartridge are the rubber roundel and very rarely the casing of the cap. In tilting the weapon from left to right after each discharge, these residues disappear.

The rubber roundel, thanks to its large diameter, never melts and penetrates into the fouling chamber of the bolt head; as a result the function of the needle always remains unchanged.

The sizing of this cartridge takes place naturally, since the tubes are always made to the same dimensions; as a result, the introduction of this cartridge into the unfouled chamber is always easy, identical and free from danger.

We had demonstrated that combusible cartridges presented greater regularity in their loading than metallic cartridges and we have just established that the new cartridge, from this point of view, is far superior to the cartridges in use today.

The speed of fire is exceptional with the new cartridge, for no undesirable or harmful residue causes a delay in loading. It requires only five movements like the combustible cartridge. From this point of view this cartridge is superior to combustible and metallic cased cartridges.

The experiments made at St. Médard have proved that in firing at will, without intervals, a man can fire 150 of the new cartridges, while one could fire only 101 combustible cartridges of the 1866 model.

The safety of the firer is complete with the new cartridge.

In fact of 1089 cartridges fired at St. Médard only one misfire was experienced, caused by a cap not provided with its fulminate.

The 25 firers taking part in the St. Médard experiments found unanimously that this cartridge caused less recoil than that of the regulation cartridge.

Finally in spite of 207 cartridges fired consecutively in the same rifle and without intervals, the rubber obturator remained intact, always functioning efficiently, while after 85 regulation cartridges fired in another rifle, the rubber obturator partly melted and permitted gas escape.

These important conclusions would seem to be fantasy if we did not indicate the theoretical causes.

The absence of misfires comes, as we have explained for metallic cartridges, from the reliable rigidity of the new cartridge.

The diminution in the intensity of recoil is a direct result of the length of the new cartridge, of which the bullet is always and exactly forced into the forcing cone at the beginning of the rifling, while as we have explained, in both combustible and metallic cased cartridges, their bullets do not bear against the barrel walls, and arrive at the rifling with an initial velocity. There is thus a shock of which the reaction is felt on the firer’s shoulder.

Conservation of the rubber obturator is a consequence of the function of the rubber roundel which closes the tube of the new cartridge.

We have seen, in fact, that this roundel has a diameter of 13 millimetres. Now when it rests on the bolt head and is submitted to compression by the powder gases, this roundel increases in circumference and acquires a calibre, in the chamber,of 14.5mm., an initial obturation which prevents the obturator of the bolt from rising to an excessive temperature.

The accuracy of fire of the new cartridge is far superior to those of other cartridge systems; we have demonstrated in the first part of this memoir that this accuracy is due to the centring of the bullet, a greater muzzle velocity and the cleanliness of the bore; we have proof that these requirements are better fulfilled by he new cartridge than by any other.

The centring of the bullet is always perfect in the new cartridge, for it is 4½mm.longer than the regulation cartridge; it follows that the bullet is driven into the forcing cone of the bore, while the moving bolt head bears exactly on the centre of the tube. Let us note in passing that this forcing home of the bullet requires no effort on the part of the firer, the compession of the powder in the tube permitting the mobile bolt head to enter into the tube, resting on the rubber protector of the cap.

The muzzlevelocity imparted to the bullet is greater in the new cartridge for two reasons:

The first, because there is an absence of fouling, is that all the powder gases act, without loss, on the bullet.

The second is that the bullet, experiencing no shock, does not experience a reduction in its initial velocity.

Finally the new cartridge keeps the barrel in a relatively perfect state of cleanliness. Indeed the fabric covered tube, having a diameter in its cylindrical part of 13½mm., is circumferentially compressed in passing from the forcing cone into the barrel. It breaks into strips adhering to the base wad, forming an elastic body which, being projected from the barrel, cleans the bore at each shot.

From the preceding one sees clearly that in the four respects of regularity, speed, safety and accuracy of fire, the new cartridge is superior to combustible and metallic cased cartridges.


Solidity of the cartridge

The solidity of the Callebaut cartridge yields nothing to that of the metallic cartridge, but posses over it the undeniable advantage that it can be half-crushed without being rendered unserviceable. The bullet is almost as strongly attached to the powder case as in the metallic case; this cartridge is as clean to handle.

It follows that the new cartridge possesses all the advantages of the metallic cartridge, without its disadvantages.


Ease and speed of manufacture

When one is given the powder case, no cartridge for a military breech-loading firearm is easier and faster to make up than the Callebaut cartridge.

By the division of labour, a girl with little experience or a soldier of low intelligence can make 200 in ten hours of work, without the aid of any machine or special tool. They can be made in all infantry units with the greatest ease and precision.

If one recalls that in out specialized factories one can make, per day of ten hours and per worker, only 85 regulation cartridges or 150 metallic cartridges, with the aid of powerful and expensive tooling, one understands the immense advantage of the new cartridge.

If the material composing the powder case of this cartridge were indispensable, for making up this cartridge, one might fear that in certain special situations the infantry could not participate in making the said cartridges. Happily, thanks to the principle of training in the utilization of the new cartridge, one can, if necessary, at a given moment on campaign, substitute for the tube material paper formed on a suitable mandrel. Any thin paper may be used for this purpose.

It follows from this that the cartridge fulfils all the requirement for the cartridges used in muzzle loading military weapons. If a convoy of powder or munitions can be taken from the enemy by our army, they can make use of them against the enemy.


Economy in the purchase price

To the innumerable advantage of the new cartridge, there must be added its low price.

Apart from an incontestable economy over the regulation cartridge in its purchase price, no less an economy results from the relative absence of misfires and its good storage qualities.

It presents an even greater economy relative to the price of metallic cartridges, without presenting any disadvantage in use.

The adoption of the new cartridge, compared to the regulation cartridge and the metallic cartridge, would make an annual saving of several millions for our armies of the future."

(Continued in another post)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

OBSERVATIONS

We have said that the new cartridge require no modification to the Model 1866 riflle; the experiments made at St. Médard have placed this fact beyond denial. It is as well, however, to consider the source of the criticisms made of the Chassepot rifle, in order to understand that the new cartridge considerably extends its range.

Everyone knows that the soldier is provided with several spare parts, which are:

1. A mainspring;
2. A movable bolt head;
3. An obturator
4. Two needles

The large mainspring, in the shooting of regulation cartridges, becomes hot and fouls considerably after some shots are fired, the jets of burning powder following the needle’s channel to reach this spring, which eventually loses its temper and breaks.

The weakening of its temper is extremely grave; it is to this that one attributes the defect of rifles cocking themselves at the shock of the butt on the ground; the spring loses its elasticity and the needle no longer has the force to ignite the fulminate in the cartridge.

With the new cartridge nothing of the sort can happen; for thanks to the rubber roundel of 13mm. diameter which remains adhering to the barb of the moveable bolt-head, no escape of gas can penetrate into the bolt, as this roundel makes a perfect seal of the needle channel.

It was found by comparison at St. Médard that a rifle having fired nine regulation cartridges had its mainstpring badly fouled, while a similar rifle, after 35 new cartridges, produced no fouling of the spring or its housing.

So we are right to conclude that as the new cartridge protects the mainspring, one might make a rule to give no spare to the soldier.

With regulation cartridges the fouling chamber of the moveable bolt-head, in whichthe partly melted small roundels of rubber lodge, ends by filling up and preventing all movement of the needle. This bolt-head must be taken out of service, for its cleaning is almost impossible.

With the new cartridge nothing comparable happens, the 13mm. rubber roundel cannot melt, and because of its great size does not penetrate into the bolt head.

Finally we can quite definitely conclude that one may dispense with giving the soldier a spare bolt head.

We have seen what were the causes of the degradation of the rubber obturator with the regulation cartridges and we have proved that with the new cartridges this rubber obturator remained intact. We will return to this point.

Since two spare needles are issued to each soldier, it is accepted that this is the most fragile part of the Chassepot weapon.

The fragility of the needle is due to its small diameter, and if we observe that needles always break at the level of the barbed tip of the moveable bolt-head, the cocking-piece being in the fired position, we can conclude that the breakage arises from the action of the small regulation rubber roundel, when it penetrates forcefully into the fouling chamber.

If this roundel, as we have demonstrated with the new cartridge, never penetrates into the bolt-head, we would have removed one of the principal causes of needle breakage.

The experiments made at St. Médard prove that the new cartridge greatly improves the life of the needle.

It is clear that if the Chassepot needle were of double its actual diameter, its resistance to breakage would be multiplied by four. It follows that its breakage would be rare with the regulation cartridge and impossible with the new cartridges.

We may therefore ask why the Artillery Committee has adopted a needle of such small diameter.

The reason is simple: for the needle to move in its channel in the bolt-head, it is necessary that there be a certain clearance between the circumference of the needle and that of the hole in the bolt-head. The larger this needle is, the larger must be the space through which the burning powder penetrate into the bolt. Since this space, with the present dimensions and the regulationcartridge, is enough to render the mainspring unserviceable, what would the effect be if this space was doubled?

We have already seen that the new cartridge, with its large rubber roundel, already seals this space and would seal it equally well if the space were double its length. So we believe that with the new cartridge we could, with no disadvantage, double the diameter of the needle and therefore quadruple its strength.

We cannot end this short discourse without mentioning a rather grave disadvantage which sometimes causes serious accidents.

However well sized the regulation cartridges may be, it often happens that impact with the bolt is required to force it into the chamber and be abe to close the bolt. This impact acting upon a cap imperfectly protected by the small rubber roundel, it sometimes happens that the shot is fired without the bolt being closed. In this way soldiers sometimes fall victim to grave accidents.

With the new cartridge this accident is no longer to be feared, for the following reasons:

1. The chamber, being cleaned by each shot fired, is always clean enough for loading to require no effort.
2. The new cartridges by their nature being correctly sized, the effort to load is always the same.
3. The pressure of the moveable bolt head on the cap is always cushioned by the large rubber roundel in the cartridge. If an effort was necessary, moreover, the shock of the bolt on the cartridge would be without effect on the cap, since the latter would be forced into the deliberately uncompressed powder charge.

The Callebaut cartridge therefore requires no modification of the Chassepot rifle,and greatly reduces the defect of fragility of which this weapon, excellent in other respects, has sometimes been accused.

One might nonetheless profit from the new cartridge to give the needle a diameter of 3mm. instead of the 1½mm. it has today. The modification of the moveable bolt-head and the bolt (modification of the three guides) is easy enough to be done quickly and at low cost in all the regiments by the units' master armourers.

At the same time it might perhaps be useful to make the bolt slot in the receiver, on which the heel of the bolt rests, no longer a straight line perpendicular to the bolt axis, but partly inclined and partly as it is.

This modification could avoid all shock of the bolt head against the cartridge cap, if a cartridge were too large in diameter.

As much,indeed, from the tolerance in the chambers as by the inevitable tolerance in the specified length of the cartridge, it may be necessary to allow a variation of two or three millimetres before effort is required to close the bolt. If a cartridge of excessive diameter prevents the closure of the bolt by 3mm., the heel of the bolt is 3mm. from its slot in the receiver. If an inclined plane joins,with rounded corner, this slot at 12mm. from its bottom, one would no longer have to use impact to close the bolt; simple pressure of the bolt lever on the inclined plane would replace this dangerous shock and permit closure of the said bolt.

We have said that part of the 12mm. perpendicular to the barrel axis would be retained. This part is necessary to support the bolt rib at the moment of recoil.

We conclude this work by stating that in our view the adoption of the Callibaut cartridge, the modification of the needle of the Chassepot rifle and the inclined plane in the locking notch constitute the sole improvements required in the armament of our troops.

As these improvements, far from being costly and slow, are inexpensive and rapid, we can conclude by rendering homage to the wisdom of the President of the Republic. Appealing a year ago to the inventiveness of the citizens of France, he has never doubted that it is possible to modify the regulation cartridge without changing the essential principles of the M1866 rifle, one of the most perfect weapons in use among the armies of the present day.”

P. Ganidel,
Engineer and former officer

Searching reveals that jaconet was a light but slightly stiff cotton cloth, and I would guess that the varnish was collodion, which is nitrocellulose dissolved in ether. A French invention of 1846, this was well known in photography. It may have been enough, on its own. to give the cotton the rigidity described. There are many nitrocelluloses, with differentamounts of nitrogen, and collodion, like nitrate film stock, was probably alower grade than nitrocellulose powder. But it should have rendered the cotton behind the bullet combustible all right, as it already did in cartridges for cap and ball revolvers. I think accuracy could only have been possible if the so-called expelled case fell away instantly at the muzzle.

It should be noted that Ganidel repeatedly refers to the regulation cartridge as combustible. This suggests that borax fireproofing might be the wrong way to go, and saltpetre the right one. Saltpetre actually converts string into a very slow-burning fuse. but what happens in the presence of incandescent charcoaland sulphur instead of cotton or hemp may be much faster

What I find especially interesting is the reference to wood. It is possible that the casing included a layer of wood veneer or strips, but I think the casing was glued, perhaps by the collodion, to a discarding wooden disc at the reaf of the bullet. The word translated above as “base wad” is “culot”, and “cul” is something you sit upon, which isn’t furniture. Forward of this, the casing broke into strips at the muzzle. To the rear of it, it was consumed in combustion. I wish we had a drawing to show whether anything was done, besides the collodion and the presence of the powder gases, to make the casing behave differently before and behind the rear of the bullet.

The possibility that Bigslug's misfires owe something to a partly annealed mainspring, even if it is clean now, is important. Possibly the coils would be closer together at one end than the other if this is the case. I have several times found Martini mainsprings broken, and the coilspring in firearms was even more in its infancy with the Chassepot.

I think the Musée de l'Armée in Paris would be the people to consult on the Callebaut cartridge.

[Bigslug]

Can we pin the Legion d'honneur on Ballistics for that heroic translation effort? WOW!

Seeing as that was intended as a justification memo, there had to be some manner of demonstration blueprint to go along with it. Hopefully, it's not hidden away with artwork stolen by the Nazis, or incinerated by a bomb from a B-17. . . As you say, the Paris museum might be the place. Yulzari: Job Opportunity!

Now, I think Mr. Ganidel was perhaps blowing a little bit of contractor's smoke in his optimistic appraisals of this round, but I am curious about what kind of logistics were, or would have been proposed for construction of these rounds by troops in the field, or at least a not-too-far-from-the-front rear area. Despite the lack of need for strategic materials and heavy equipment, the regulation Callibaut cartridge seems like a somewhat sophisticated construct. In addition to a blueprint for the factory-made item, somebody must have worked on instructions for making the field expedient version.

In that article, he discusses converting captured enemy munitions into Chassepot rounds. I have to wonder if they were seriously thinking about disassembling enemy munitions, melting the lead, recasting it to the proper size and shape, scouring the countryside for bicycle tires and tubes, and sending enough percussion caps, mandrels, punches, templates, glue, wax, shellac, etc... to the front to accomplish this on a scale fit to fuel an army with, and what troops would be performing the actual work. The military history of France has caused the individual French fighting man to get a lot of disrespect that is probably better directed at his leadership and support system. This may be a valuable insight into the brain-wiring of that bureaucracy. It's a good thing the improved cartridge would have enabled the soldier to carry fewer spare parts for the gun - he'd have needed the extra room in his pack for the "sewing kit" needed to convert Dreyse or Minie Ball ammo.

As to the mainspring on my rifle in particular, I too was wondering about that. It's an 1873 production gun, and in very good shape internally - not likely shot much at any rate, or at least decently cared for. How it ended up in the American Midwest in the 1950's is a story I may not be able to reconstruct. . . But how to determine proper spring tension? The diameter of wire, diameter of the spring itself, space it has to fit in, and number of coils is easy enough. . .but does anyone have a blueprint showing how long the spring is supposed to be when new and uninstalled? Perhaps an e-mail to our friends at Wolff Springs is in order. . .

[downunderrunner]

ok, i am somewhat in awe at the moment!

Ballistics, i think you deserve at LEAST the SG for that effort, and providing the information to those of us trying to make these fine old ladies speak!

i would ask, does anyone have diagrams/scematics for the callibaud cartridge? it seems to me, that it would be just the thing for keeping these ladies talking!

[Bigslug]

Yulzari has been digging, and is probably digging physically closer to the likely source than most of us. The question to ask him (and others) at this point is "WHERE have you been digging?"

Equally important, we should inquire "What questions have been asked?" Ballistics, I think you may have provided a clue of sorts. The text you translated is from a manual/pamphlet that is (as far as I can tell), pretty well know to the more experienced Chassepoteers, but YOU found it through fiddling with the spelling possibilities of the word "Callibaut". Our schematics could be filed under any of them - maybe even filed under a mis-spelling of the correct version. Major events of history have turned on less.

I am VERY curious about the 13mm diameter of the Callibaud (Callebaud, Callibaut. . .?) cartridge's rubber disk. The original 1866 cartridge was a straight cylinder. I wonder if the Callibaud was tapered in shape, or if edge of the larger diameter disk was somehow folded down. A tapered body would be harder to construct - especially under field conditions as the memo says - and would probably be harder to expel from the muzzle, but WOULD center nicely in the chamber. It certainly wouldn't be very durable to simply glue a 13mm disk onto the back of an 11mm cartridge with its edges hanging off, although that may be a place to start experimenting if source documents cannot be found.

OK. . .on second reading I discern that the case body for the Callebaud is 13.5mm in diameter, so, in theory, NOT tapered, and large enough to house the 13mm rubber disk.

I think a chamber casting may prove educational at this point. It's pretty clear from the text that the Callebaud headspaced on the 11~ish mm bullet contacting the throat, so a the length of a 13.5mm powder bag would have to be spaced out accordingly. I wonder if it used the same bullet as the 1866 round or if they came up with something different for the purpose?

[yulzari]

Jolly good Ballistics. I am familiar with Ganidels paper (I sent you a copy Bigslug) and it was my starting point. Ganidel did a masterly job of talking about it, espousing it but failing to describe it in any meaningful way. It is curious that he must have been aware that the basic Chassepot cartridge was expulsive and not combustible yet refers to it as combustible as a contrast to the expulsive Callebaud. It was subject to a military trial but I have not yet found a record of these outside his paper.

(http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5540557t)

Callebaud patented his breech loading cartridge for military and hunting use on 3rd December 1872 in patent 97.354. Boursier (shellac stiffened) and Chellot were other paper cartridge suggested improvements. Ganidel compares it's rigidity with a metal case.

I have only searched via the internet, living in exceedingly rural France. I do visit that other country, Paris, annually to see my cousins but this coming year I am off to New Zealand for a month instead so I won't be in Paris (shudders) until 2017. I have come across native French Chasspotiers on the same search but they are as baffled as I.

My guiding principle is that, in it's own time in the Chassepot rifle, the standard original cartridge worked well when properly made. If in doubt I try to get closer to the original rather than have 'better' ideas. The Callebaud cartridge existed, was trialled and is said (by Ganidel who was involved) to be even better so the Callebaut cartridge would be the next period step. A parallel activity might be to create a Chassepot cartridge of our own from first principles and modern materials.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thank you for those kind words, and I trust you will be careful with the pin. Of course those long-dead Frenchmen did most of the work, even if we are tantalizingly unaware of the result. We often forget that the technologists of the past, all the way back to flint implements, were extremely good at what they did.

I agree that Ganidel seems to be over-egging the pudding a bit. I think the Callebaut cartridge did offer most of the advantages over the regulation one that he claims, but very few over the metallic 11mm. Gras, for a rifle adopted the year after his booklet. In particular he overrates the possible effect of supposed deterioration of powder and case at the point where they meet. This seems to trouble us very little today, including when someone occasionally fires a black powder cartridge a hundred and forty years older than he could have known.

However the rubber roundel was attached, I think the reason that it didn't melt into the needle channel was that it was quite thick. There are Chassepot and Gras rounds side by side in the Wikipedia article on the Gras, and "Cartridges of the World" gives its shoulder diameter as .531in., or 13.48mm., and head of .544, or 13.81mm. Assuming that not much metal was removed in the Chassepot to Gras conversion, there would have been room for a 13mm, roundel covered in something thin.

1870 was a bad time in French military operations, there is no denying that. The deficiencies were strategic and organizational, but not material. Napoleon III himself was a genuine artilleryman like his illustrious uncle, enlightened military technologist and keen promoter of revolver shooting, who designed one of the most popular cannon of the American Civil War, and might have preceded the US with an Ericson ironclad if the Crimean War had lasted longer. The Chassepot, although subject to the failures noted, was far superior to the Prussians' Dreyse needle gun, and they had (but used badly) the excellent mitrailleuse machine-gun. Only in artillery was Prussia superior.

The other Napoleon speaks for himself, but I think he was a commander of even great vision than his reputation suggests. A host of military innovations, over many centuries, originated in France. Britain and America have never suffered as badly as France did in the First World War, and yet both commanders and men performed well to the last. I don't believe there is a greater or more decisive feat of arms than that of General Joffre, who although nobody ever called him a man of vision, preserved an infuriating calm in the midst of disaster until he saw the moment when the German army could be flanked and turned back on the Marne.

[Bigslug]

Email sent to the Paris army museum seeking Callebaud diagrams. We shall see what we shall see.

[yulzari]

Ganidel is indeed somewhat mendacious in referring to copper cartridges and not brass. Copper ones did have corrosion issues with black powder but not brass and was softer and more easily damaged.

What we do know is that the Callebaut cartridge was made of a thin cotton, coated with a waterproof varnish. Possibly shellac or oil varnish? With a 13mm rubber washer at the base. Is rigid and wood is involved somewhere in a form that passes down the barrel on firing. He is clear that the cartridge is a cotton tube, the base is rubber and the whole is rigid. A wooden top to the powder case would offer no benefits but, just possibly, a wooden rod extending from the back of the primer to the top of the case might offer rigidity both in supporting the powder case generally and the primer in particular. One modern cartridge maker has successfully used a narrow cardboard tube to support the primer in this way.

So my working hypothesis, pending further information, is a cartridge made in a similar way to the original but with the powder case in cotton fabric (sewn seam?) with a wooden rod down the middle and waterproofed with a coat of varnish. The round is 4,5mm longer thus forcing the bullet down the ramp into the rifling. The cylinder of the powder case is 13,5mm in diameter (which will enter the chamber) , squeezing down as it reaches the ramp and the powder burning will reduce it to strips connecting the bullet to the rubber 13mm disk and the whole then being dragged out.

I hasten to add again that we have no evidence for the wood in form or function other than that there is some use of wood of less than bore diameter. Incidentally, regarding a sewn seam, Callebaud was in the sewing machine business and would be able to ensure consistent machine sewing of a cotton tube. Perhaps a production line making continuous cotton tubing to be cut to length? Even varnished into a hard tube before assembly? There is a suggestion that the powder is in direct contact with the waterproofed cotton tubing which would argue against there being a paper powder case, made in a similar fashion to the service cartridge, inserted into the cotton tube before varnishing the whole.

With close tolerances in dimensions I would expect that such a cartridge as this hypothesis could be made and would work. Whether it is period is another matter. The trickiest part would be securing the base disk/primer assembly to a fabric tube. A rubber fabric glue of the time (used in balloon making) is natural rubber dissolved in petrol (gasoline) and may be able to do the job. I would beware of the varnish material being deposited on the chamber walls by the heat of firing so some trials of different varnishes might be wise. Even a hot chamber from rapid firing might have an effect from the walls inwards also.