Mle. 1866 Chassepot Cartridge Construction - DIY Insanity!

[Bigslug]

EDIT ON 5-28-2018! If you're just coming to this party, I've learned a lot since this project began. I've recently come into some excellent guidance on how to properly construct the original cartridge for this animal, and that information is getting posted on page 6 of this thread beginning at post #118. You're probably going to want to read through my adventures since some of the tools and techniques remain constant, but if you're looking to construct the real French deal, don't start cutting anything until you get to page 6! Thanks Chap!

Thanks to all who assisted on the other thread in helping Dad & I get started with the necessary missing bolt parts. Especially to Yulzari, who's been a tremendous resource all around.

I figured a re-launch was in order, and figured it would be fun to share, as this is without question the weirdest, most bizarre system for sending a bullet down a barrel that I have come across. For those who are unfamiliar, here is the launch platform:

The French 1866 Chassepot, which can probably be best described as an improvement on the Austrian Dreyse needle gun of the late 1840's. The Dreyse used a paper powder cartridge with a percussion primer attached to the BACK OF THE BULLET. The firing pin was a long, slender needle that pierced all the way through the powder charge to ignite the primer. The piercing was asking a lot of the needle structurally, and surrounding it with burning black powder was asking a lot of it chemically.

The Chassepot moved the primer - a top-hat style musket cap - to the back of the paper cartridge. Oddly enough, the cap faces backwards, AWAY from the powder charge. The Chassepot manages to deal with this, among other technical problems faced by the ballistician of the early cartridge age. The solutions are pretty involved as you'll see, and are not the solutions we're all comfortable with today.

Here's our earliest prototype version of what it shoots:


What you're looking at is a paper-patched bullet that does not have the normal twist and tuck of the paper that you'd normally see for a Sharps, Martini, or similar wrapped slug. The back is left open and a silk-wrapped paper cylinder containing the charge, priming mechanism, and rubber disk is inserted and tied on. We've yet to progress that far, but the original rounds were dipped in beeswax and tallow as a bore lube and waterproofing measure. We'll probably be painting it with Ben's Liquid Lube.

Next up: What goes on inside a Chassepot!

[Bigslug]

Moving on: Here's a pic of the business end of a Chassepot's bolt:

. . .and the head of the bolt itself with needle. . .

The needle only passes through the face of the bolt by about a quarter inch. It the pierces the back of the cartridge that contains something like this:

.45 caliber cardboard wad disk with a 1/4" hole, percussion cap inserted, then filled with a small charge of black powder (Triple 7 in our case), capped off with a .45 caliber rubber disk cut out of bicycle inner tube.

The head of the bolt compresses the rubber washer against the back of the percussion cap creating something of a seal. When the cap goes off, there's enough pressure to blow out the sides of the cap and touch off the main charge. Here's the results of our first test using cornmeal in place of gunpowder:
A couple shots of the cap and what it did to the stern of the cornmeal test round.

So, now that the main charge has ignited. . .take a look at the head of the bolt. You'll see a couple black rubber plumbing washers (courtesy of Yulzari). When the pressure in the chamber builds, the steel head gets shoved backwards, compressing that rubber against the main bolt body, swelling it outwards against the chamber walls. That's the seal that keeps you from getting a face full of powder gasses. But we're not through yet!

The rubber disk blows back off the cartridge body. It's still impaled by the needle and is being flexed back over the nozzle like projection of the bolt head. We'll come back to Mr. Rubber Disk in a minute. . .

The tube that forms the cartridge body is wrapped with a layer of silk gauze, which, for the short duration of the powder burn, will not ignite. This is tied to the base of the bullet's paper patch with string. The whole paper tube gets dragged out of the barrel by the bullet, where centrifugal force and air resistance peel all the paper away.

Back to the rubber disk. . . While the barrel was pressurized, some of that pressure got behind the rubber disk into the space between the back of the round and the front of the rubber washer-sealed bolt face. When the pressure in the bore drops, the higher pressure behind the washer pops it off the needle and sends it down the bore, leaving everything clear for the next shot. Such is the theory anyway.

That's how it's supposed to work. Next up: How to make its food!

[Bigslug]

So in order to make a cartridge, you first need BOOLITS!

Would you believe that Tom at Accurate Molds has a blueprint for the very thing?
This is the 46-365C. It casts a tad over 380 grains when you swap the spec wheelweight for 40-1 (much closer to the original slug material)

And some of the tools we've fabricated for the process:
Sorry my phone decided to auto rotate and shoot this one sideways, but clockwise from bottom-right:
1. Template for the 5CM long powder tube (how we arrived at that length in a bit)
2. Template for the bullet's paper patch
3. Template for the powder tube's outer silk cover
4. 7/16" wooden dowel wrapped with a bit of alumium ducting tape to bring it up to match the .460" of the base of the bullet. This is the mandrel around which we roll the powder tubes.
5. 7/16" dowel that will then fit INSIDE the slightly larger powder tube. We use this to help with sealing the front of the powder tube, seating spacer wads, and packing the powder tightly.

Next up: Sealing the ends of the tube! (Here's where it gets a little strange)

[Bigslug]

So. . .on the original Chassepot cartridge blueprint, the rear of the powder cartridge is filled with a heavy paper/cardboard disk containing the percussion cap; that gets covered with the rubber disk, and that in turn gets covered with a multi-pointed paper "star"; the petals of which get folded over and glued to the side of the powder tube; after which the silk cover gets rolled on.

According to Yulzari, Chassepot enthusiasts either cut out that star by hand (REALLY TEDIOUS!), or they redesign the round not to need it. About a year ago, my wife took on a wedding cake project that involved making a lot of decorative snowflakes. "Hmmm. . ." I said, and I headed out on a reconnaissance of craft stores that ended at JoAnn's Fabrics, where I found THIS:

The "Large" size "Oopsie Daisy" paper punch from our good friends at the Fiskars scissors company. The center section of the flower is somewhere right around 1/2", and works pretty much perfectly for this job. Like so:
The only problem in doing both the tube and the stars out of 20# cotton bond paper is that applying and sticking the petals down with Elmer's glue stick is a royal P I T A. It's even more of a pain trying to glue the rubber inner tube disk to the percussion cap disk. That's about where we left it last night when I left Dad's place for home. This morning, the R.O.M.O.L. (Retired Old Man Of Leisure) went to Staples looking for a better 1/4" hole punch, and texted me with the following innovation:

Again, sorry for the sideways-defaulting phone, but 8.5"x11" PEEL AND STICK adhesive sheets that can be cut to any shape desired! Solves the end-cap problem nicely, and also closing up the back of the powder-filled percussion caps:

While the bright colored label material may not be period-correct, it does have a useful job here - it allows us to color-code which end of the cartridge has the percussion cap, and which end holds nothing but spacer wads. Kinda important come final assembly time!

As to determining cartridge length: This is going to vary depending on your bullet design. We plunked a patched bullet into the lands and then placed a cornmeal filled dummy round with a live cap in behind it. We added successive card wads between the two until we got cap ignition. From there, we converted the original French charge of 70 grains by volume of real black powder into 52.5 grains of Triple 7 (same volume), which we reduced by 15% to arrive at 44.6 grains. This should be the power equivalent of the original charge. We bulked up the front of the case with wads (we're probably going to end up with cork) in order to get the back of the case in the right place.

That's about all I've got for this evening. In upcoming chapters, I'll try to get into the silk covering, waterproofing, fabricating spare needles and spare bolt washers (known as "obturateurs"). Archery deer season starts this weekend. Three weeks of that, two weeks off, and then on to the REAL event of the 4-week rifle season. Suffice to say, further science may experience some delays while that's going on!

[rancher1913]

very interesting, doubt I would go to that extreme just to send lead downrange but very cool non the less.

[Bigslug]

very interesting, doubt I would go to that extreme just to send lead downrange but very cool non the less.

Ultimately, I want to delve into the history of how this thing came to be, though that may require a lot of "Google Translate" from French documents. In 1866, they HAD primed brass cases, and this design only lasted 8-9 years when they started converting them into the metallic case-using Gras rifle. As I've heard it, the French military wanted something that could take advantage of the cottage industry system using low tech hand labor, and avoiding all the "heavy metal" machinery associated with brass or copper shells. That it still suffered from the same weather resistance and rough handling issues that all paper cartridges from the last several centuries didn't seem to bother them.

A few of my sources indicate that the "to the blueprints" cartridges worked great, but when things started getting hairy for the French in the 1870 war with Prussia, a lot of ammo production became a rush-job proposition. Establishing correct headspace on a hand-rolled cartridge made by people that just started at it two weeks ago? I'm glad they issued me a bayonet. . .

I suspect the behind-the-scenes story of the adoption and issue process is something that would fit right into the Dilbert comic strip. As a non-brass solution to the breechloader sealing problem, it's quite clever, and in the 1850's, would have been an amazing world-beater. In the late 1860's, it was near obsolete when brand new. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time. . .

[Bigslug]

Well. . .we now have 25 cylinders that may or may not actually go "BANG!"

This was definitely one of those messy "learn a whole lot the first time" kind of experiences. There isn't a great deal of consistency to these, so we'll be happy if they simply go downrange. We did learn a fair amount about the process, however, and have a good idea of what we will and won't do the next time. All in all, a productive evening.

First thing we learned was that Ben's Liquid Lube is pretty mediocre as a glue for attaching the outer silk layer. It got it done, but we're going to have to figure something else out for the long term.

Next thing we discovered is that the approach of paper-patching the bullet like this. . .
. . .doesn't work too well when you try to insert a powder tube that has been silk-sleeved and coated with BLL, so we then tried paper patching the bullets while holding them against the powder tube - first with a tab of super glue between the two, and then without when we found we could do it that way. A tie of dental floss a quarter inch back from the bullet's base finished the job.

The petals of the daisy-shaped cutouts are proving a little difficult to keep stuck down 100%, though if they're immediately anchored with the silk gauze sheath, it shouldn't be a big deal. The innovation we plan to try next time is. . .
3M paper tape from the pharmacy, cut with pinking shears. Makes nice little triangular tabs to fold in and stick to the ends.

Friday is test day. If I don't disappear in a mushroom cloud, I'll report back afterwards. EEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

[KenH]

BigSlug - THANK YOU for posting such an interesting and educational thread. That is amazing how much ya'll were able to find and learn about this rifle and ammo. It sure takes the cake for complex way of doing things..... well, except for maybe the Austrian Dreyse needle gun, but they had the excuse of doing this in 1840's, not after brass cartridges were used.

Ken H>

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ultimately, I want to delve into the history of how this thing came to be, though that may require a lot of "Google Translate" from French documents. In 1866, they HAD primed brass cases, and this design only lasted 8-9 years when they started converting them into the metallic case-using Gras rifle. As I've heard it, the French military wanted something that could take advantage of the cottage industry system using low tech hand labor, and avoiding all the "heavy metal" machinery associated with brass or copper shells. That it still suffered from the same weather resistance and rough handling issues that all paper cartridges from the last several centuries didn't seem to bother them.

A few of my sources indicate that the "to the blueprints" cartridges worked great, but when things started getting hairy for the French in the 1870 war with Prussia, a lot of ammo production became a rush-job proposition. Establishing correct headspace on a hand-rolled cartridge made by people that just started at it two weeks ago? I'm glad they issued me a bayonet. . .

I suspect the behind-the-scenes story of the adoption and issue process is something that would fit right into the Dilbert comic strip. As a non-brass solution to the breechloader sealing problem, it's quite clever, and in the 1850's, would have been an amazing world-beater. In the late 1860's, it was near obsolete when brand new. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time. . .

All this is a marvelous effort, especially the stars, and I bet you will enjoy the shooting a lot more than you would if you had just shoved cash over someone's counter, even for every reloading gadget you would need. For other sorts of shape people might need in quantity, I would suggest making a couple of sheet metal cutouts, riveting them to the tips of a pair of cheap pliers, artery forceps or crucible tongs, and burning out the shape with a blowtorch or heat gun.

The Chassepot was devised at a time when a few months could make a big difference to the technical developments available. It was very superior to the aging Prussian needle-gun, but the technology existed to let them out of making it a needle-fire at all. The earlier.69 Tabatière conversion of the percussion military , both the firearm and the ammunition, much resembled the British Snider, although not quite as modern and efficient. The cartridge was pasteboard with a brass base and either covering or liner, I forget which. But it was an orthodox centrefire, with a gas-sealing cartridge. Well, gas-sealing most of the time anyway.

The Chassepot was at least of smaller caliber, with a heavier powder charge and more elongated bullet, han either the .50-70 Springfield or the .577 Snider. It can't be called the right decision in the strict sense of the word, but I doubt if it was hasty or superficial. Here, for comparison, is the specification issued by the government commission on revolvers, which resulted in the M1873. It should be compared with what the heirs of Colonel Colt were doing in the same year.

The weapon must not be ofbreak-open design.

It must be a single unit,durable and solid, of which no part, in use, may catch on other objects, goastray, detach or be lost.

Therevolving cylinder must be easily removable for cleaning, and yet solidly heldin place by the axis pin; the latter must be easily withdrawn, without risk ofinadvertent displacement.

The loading gate must besimple, solid and easily used, but unable to open accidentally, and itsposition must be such that the shooter will always notice if he has forgottento close it.

The ejector rod must bestrong, its use easy, its movement free. At rest it must be held firmly inplace by simple, solid parts which vibrate, echo and click into place in amilitary manner. It must present no projections and not be subject to fractureor bending, and must be protected from rust.

The barrel must be rifled insuch a way that it gives accurate shooting to the point of aim at a 25 meter target, withoutthe foresight projecting excessively or being capable of catching on otherobjects. The flatness of the trajectory must permit firing to the same point ofaim at 50 meters,and to reach the target at 100 meters and beyond without noticeable deviation.

The weapon must becenterfire.

Astrong half-cock notch is indispensable.

It must be possible to changefrom rapid to intermittent fire, and vice versa. (Presumably from single todouble action without other operation or adjustment, eliminating devicesresembling the Tranter’s secondary cocking trigger – BIS.)

The lock must be simple,solid and military. It must frequently and easily, anywhere and at any time, bepossible to check, examine, lubricate and dismantle it without tools, with nopossibility of any part’s becoming detached or lost. There must be nopossibility of any part being incorrectly reassembled or accidentallydisplaced.

To this end the main screwsshould be eliminated, and the springs should be large, strong, flexible andtough. The mechanism must be uncomplicated and understandable to theuninstructed, and the parts so simple that any craftsman accustomed to workingiron can if necessary repair or replace them.

[MFGordon]

I don't know if this came up on the other thread but one thing you might want to know is that the Chasspot has a 100 meter reduced range rear sight notch. Flip the rear sight all the way forward so that it rests flat on the barrel. This will expose a very low rear sight notch. I discovered this on a Frenh website.

[Bigslug]

"IT WENT OFF!! IT WENT OFF!!"

Such was our reaction when I rested the rifle on a padded stool and reached my arm around the range's cinderblock bay dividing wall to pull the trigger on the first shot. We weren't quite so lucky with our subsequent rounds. Most of the 25 we brought to the range took several strikes - including tapping the round out and rotating, THEN re-striking - but the good news is that we only had four that wouldn't go off at all.

STUFF WE'VE LEARNED:
This was off a benchrest at 100Y. We think it has the potential to shoot pretty well once we get the bugs worked out. The four to the right of the bull were after we started tinkering with sight picture to get closer to the middle - the other 11 were all pretty much center black or 6:00 of black hold with me and Dad taking turns on the trigger. We are pretty sure the other six landed not far off the 10:00 edge of the paper. Definitely M.O.P. - Minute Of Prussian.

OH CRUMBS!!! We haven't fully sorted out the spells and incantations behind the "sucks all the cartridge debris out the barrel" magic yet. Deciding that discretion was the better part of valor, we pulled the bolt and ran a brush after every shot. We had one shot that seemed to leave a clear bore, and another that was close, but for the most part, we had between about 1/4 and 1/3 of the case paper, the primer cap assembly and the rubber washer left behind. Some of these rounds had a single layer of silk gauze applied, and some didn't - it didn't seem to make much difference. I think we need a thicker, better attached wrap of the stuff, and will probably play with painting the tubes with borax solution to keep them from burning so much.

I'll have to consult again with Yulzari, whose expertise greatly exceeds mine, but I'm presently a little dubious on the premise of the rubber disk serving the function of holding back pressure until the bullet departs, and then sweeping off the tip of the needle and down the bore. It is obvious that it seals the flash from the cap, causing it to rebound forward into the main charge, but we saw quite a few disks like this stuck to the bolt head after firing. These disks are thin rubber mountain bike tubing cut in a .45 caliber (11.25mm), and we're looking at a blueprint that shows what we THINK is the rubber disk at 8mm. How it's supposed to achieve this sweeping action is beyond me. I think we can get the cartridge body out the barrel easily enough with improved wrapping and fireproofing, but getting the cap assembly out will require greater cogitation. . .

You may recall from the earlier thread that I hit some stumbling blocks with my first attempts at overseas ordering. In a nutshell, I ended up with two new bolt heads - this second of which arrived today. Yulzari was kind enough to send the one he scored for me with his two-piece plumbing washer assembly, which worked GREAT today. This second one came with one that looks to be custom made for the job. Probably going to use it as a template/guide to find or make something out of high-temp silicone that will be impervious to the inevitable oils and greases that you try to keep away, but ultimately fail at.

Anyway, my bow season starts tomorrow. Dad will probably continue workiing at it while I'm busy with that, so I may be able to pop in with updates as his O.C.D.-driven tinkering permits. Failing that - more reports in mid November when the deer rifle gets put away.

[Bigslug]

Update on latest operating theory: Dad started rolling rounds on the assumption the regulation charge was 70 grains. We've since learned it was closer to 85 grains. My thought is that this will generate a greater volume of gas behind the cartridge debris to flush it clear of the bore. Greater structural integrity and/or fireproofing of the powder tube will be integral to this.

Councils of war to be held on the matter. To be continued!

[Argentino]

This is an excellent thread on the subject and I thank you for the effort in explaining the process and taking all those pics for us.

I´ve lost my chance of buying a Chassepot some years ago, in part because I didn´t have a clue about how to make these paper cartridges. Hopefully I´ll find another one some day, now I have some knowledge about how to feed´em.

Please let us know any further load developments. I´m following this thread with much interest.

Thank you,


Argie.

[Bigslug]

Not sure how well that will enlarge for y'all, but that is one of the main original blueprints Chassepotteers have been using. Spent a little more time trying to interpret it in greater detail.

It appears that the percussion cap is to sit inside a relatively flimsy paper cup, the 8mm rubber washer gets glued over the top of that, a heavier 13mm disk with a 6mm hole in the middle of it gets attached, which our paper "daisy" then covers to stick the whole tail end in place.

Since the "nozzle" at the front end of the bolt head is slightly larger than 6mm, we can deduce that the 13mm disk with the 6mm hole in it serves to help center up the cap with the firing pin. Being 13mm in diameter, it's a good bit larger than the bore, and it is closer in diameter to the 18mm bolt head than the rubber primer disks we've been cutting. Assuming that the force of ignition does not destroy this disk, IT ACTUALLY MAY serve as a bore sweeper - that is, of course, if this pressure management stuff works like we THINK it's supposed to work.

Punches and silicone rubber sheets ordered. Hopefully going to be able to make replacement obturators that are totally impervious to oils. Have researched borax-based fireproofing. Batch #2 should be better.

[perotter]

I like that star paper punch you found. I have a possible use for one of them, if it is about the correct size.

A number of years ago learned that craft and fabric stores have items that useful for manly projects.

[Bigslug]

Well. . .on deeper contemplation of the source documents, it would seem I'm incorrect in my last post. The 13mm card disk with the 6mm hole through the center is intended to sit on the front of the powder case directly behind the bullet. When the silk covering is applied to the outside of the case, the excess is rolled up and tucked into the hole - much like you tuck the excess paper patch into the stern of a hollow-base bullet.

The structure of the paper cartridge then is going to be almost totally reliant on getting the powder packed REALLY hard in order to give the percussion cap enough resistance to get popped.

[bedbugbilly]

A very interesting and informative thread! Thank you for all your work, photos, etc. I don't have one of these rifles but found the whole thing very interesting!

[Bigslug]

Time for an update: LET'S MAKE SOME NEEDLES!!

The rifle came with a serviceable needle, and I bought a spare online, but it seems like the sort of thing that folks shooting one of these are going to need spares on hand for, so I thought I'd solve the problem before it became an actual problem. Here's a pic outlining where I went with it:



Bottom to top:

1. .070" diameter bicycle spoke with threaded nipple.
2. Original needle that came with the rifle.
3. Second needle bought online.
4. Needle made from bike spoke and spoke nipple.

The first part of the process was to get rid of the oversized head on the nipple, as well as the unthreaded square section at the opposite end. This was easily done on a bench grinder (sanding disk).

Next was to cut the spoke about half an inch longer than needed. The extra is necessary to chuck up in a drill press, like so:

The problem is that this spoke - the narrowest gauge my local bike shop had - was .070", and the original needles are in the .058-.060" ballpark. The solution was to press it against a Lansky diamond sharpening stone (coarse) - wet with water - while the Ryobi drill press spun it. This takes a little finesse because as you move the stone up and down, the middle gets a little more abrasion than the ends. I needed to check frequently and adjust technique, but ended up with a needle that's uniform to within a thou or three.

Next step was to turn the rest of the nipple to the correct diameter. Locked calipers for the .150" of the original needle head, and used the Lansky stone until I got a slip fit through the jaws. From there it was a simple matter to disk-grind the back of it to the right length to fit inside the recess socket inside the bolt. From there, it's a simple thing to clip off the excess length and grind a point on it.

My only concern is that the nipple appears to have been made of nickle-plated brass. It's not getting asked to carry much of a load, but a little troubling all the same. No Loc-Tite in place as of yet - want to see if it's even going to be an issue.

Next time, I'm probably going to try sandwiching the spoke between two Lansky stones - the fingertips on my left middle and index fingers are feeling a little abused. . .

[Bigslug]

And here's our current thinking on cartridge assembly:



Left to right, which will be front to back of the powder container:
1. .45 caliber cork wad, about .125" thick with 6mm hole punched in the center
2. .45 caliber fiber was (I think these are .030" thick)
3. Paper tube rolled around the aluminum-tape-wrapped dowel shown in one of my earlier posts, and Elmer's glue-sticked together. Dad gave it another layer to size it so the wads would slip fit in the tube.
4. .45 caliber fiber wad (again, I think .030") with a 6mm hole punched in the center to receive. . .
5. CCI musket percussion cap.
6. .45 caliber rubber washer made from bicycle inner tube.
7. Fiskars paper-punched "daisy" cut from peel & stick sheet.

Once all that's filled with powder and assembled, we gave it a wrap of thin silk gauze applied with Elmer's glue. This was cut about 1/2 to 3/4" longer than the tube. Glued on with one edge flush with the rear, the overhang in the front is glued a bit, twisted up, and stuffed inside the hole in the cork wad, thus sealing the front of the case.

We left the percussion caps empty this time (no powder inside them) to see how that does. I also rolled some extra cases that have had the paper treated with borax solution. Next range trip, we should be able to see which variables work best.

Should be fabricating a silicone obturator soon - have the punches, but still waiting on the silcone. STAY TUNED!

[Bigslug]

I don't know if this came up on the other thread but one thing you might want to know is that the Chasspot has a 100 meter reduced range rear sight notch. Flip the rear sight all the way forward so that it rests flat on the barrel. This will expose a very low rear sight notch. I discovered this on a Frenh website.

Been meaning to thank you for this post. Flipped it over last night and yep - it's significantly lower than the 200M setting we thought was as low as it went. Might have taken us a long time to find that otherwise.

We'll be shooting an equivalent of the military charge next time, along with this sight change - we'll see what, if any magic happens.