Corroded and unserviceable 30-06 ammo.

[Mytmousemalibu]

If you want a couple of the empty boxes you can have those mytmousemalibu.

Cool, PM inbound!

[fatelk]

Edit- I didn't mean to sound like a dogmatic jerk. Please see post #26 about tumbling. Sorry.

Regarding tumbling live ammo; I've seen lots of threads on the topic over the years, and many people have done some very good controlled experiments including microscope photos and chronograph results (with controls) with various calibers and powders. Some of them ran their tumbling experiments for days on end. Everything that I have seen and read on the topic has convinced me that tumbling live ammo for a couple hours is harmless. If anyone is interested I can find and post the links. While not performed in a ballistics lab, they are thorough and pretty convincing.

The ammo in the glovebox example is always brought up, but is likely an example of a completely different phenomenon. What are the worst environmental conditions for gunpowder? Excessive heat, and a lot of hot/cold cycles. What are the typical conditions of a glove box? Excessive heat and hundreds of hot/cold cycles. When you think about it, it's quite obvious that a glove box is about the worst place in the world to store ammo, and not because of the vibrations.

To be honest, that ammo doesn't look bad at all to me. I've shot a lot worse. It all depends on whether that corrosion is just mild surface crud or something ugly inside working it's way out. I've had old powder go bad for some reason and it gets nasty inside before you see it outside but even then it makes ugly cracks in the necks as it seeps out.

If it were mine I would:

1. Give it all a short bath in a solution of Lemishine and warm water, followed by a good rinse and dry with a towel. Yes, I have washed live ammo in water. Unless there's holes in the brass or other serious corrosion problems a few minutes underwater won't hurt a thing. The way military ammo is sealed you could probably leave it underwater for a month without damage.

2. Shake each round to listen for a normal powder rattle. If any don't sound normal pull them apart to see what they look like inside. Actually I would pull a couple apart anyhow. I'd bet they are clean and shiny inside.

3. Tumble them for a couple hours. They might even be clean enough after the citric wash to not need tumbling. Personally I've tumbled a lot of live ammo over the years with never a problem. Don't overdo it- If it takes more than just a little while to clean up good enough to shoot, it's probably beyond salvage anyhow.

That's just what I would do.

[fatelk]

The stuff on the linked belts could be machine gun ammo (loaded to higher pressure)

USGI 30-06 ammo for MG use is loaded the same as 30-06 for rifle use, no difference in pressure. The only military caliber I know of off hand where this is not true is the 7.7x58 Arisaka. I've heard of people turning the rims down on MG ammo to use in rifles, and having problems.

[OptimusPanda]

Yup cause they decided that having a 7.7x58 and 7.7x58r was a great idea. Wasnt there a mk number of 303 brit that was specifically marked for machine gun use as it could wreck an SMLE?

[OptimusPanda]

fatelk, if you could find those links you were talking about I think it would make great reading.

[fatelk]

Here's one I found with a quick search: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/989...nds_in_OP.html

This guy was thorough, but I've seen others that were more scientific. You know, I guess I should have a bit of a disclaimer before totally dismissing anyone who says it's unsafe to tumble live ammo. In that same search I found some that say Bad, bad, bad, don't do it!!! Here's an example: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...n-loaded-ammo/ added- read the comments after the article

I think it was Lyman or someone in a loading manual who says it's bad because it could break down the powder. Those who use that argument are repeating what they read from a good source, so no discredit to them at all. I apologize if I came across that way. Personally I think that's erring on the safe side, as I have yet to see anyone replicate powder damage with any reasonable amount of tumbling, but I don't fault someone for erring on the safe side.

You might notice that the pro-tumbling guy had photos and specifics about his experiment, whereas the "Don't do it!" article basically said "Some people somewhere once did a study and decided it was bad" or "garage experiments prove nothing, because under certain conditions somewhere it's probably still bad". And they are probably right, hence the blanket warning that it BAD, BAD, BAD!

I found where Hodgdon says "Completed ammo should not be tumbled. The powder will degrade and increase in burn speed." With all due respect to Hodgdon, I wish they would go into it a little more than that. I've been following the issue for a long time and haven't seen anyone that has gotten any powder degradation from a reasonable amount of tumbling. This is using control lots, microscopes, chronographs, and match grade guns to test accuracy. Again, I think Hodgdon is erring on the safe side and I really don't blame them. Not at all.

I don't actually tumble live ammo very often (don't need to) and when I do it's not terribly long. I have been following the issue for a long time, though, and in any discussion about it you generally hear two different perspectives: "Scary, bad, don't do it!!! You'll blow yourself up!" vs. "I do it all the time without a problem."

So, here's my disclaimer. Please don't take my word for it. I'm just some random know-it-all on the internet. Do a google search for "tumbling live ammo". There's about a billion threads about it and lots of arguments pro and con. If you're not comfortable with it by all means don't do it. On looking again at the OP photo, I think I'd just give that ammo a lemishine wash and shoot it up, not bother tumbling.

[OptimusPanda]

That was a great link fatelk, thanks. If only I had a real way to measure chamber pressure and a test gun I didnt care about, it would be a neat test to put PSI numbers to. Though I suspect it would only verify his results.

[fatelk]

You're right. It would be interesting to do a real scientific test, complete with pressure testing equipment and all.

I kind of suspect it's a lot like the whole cast-in-a-Glock controversy. The factory says don't do it ever under any circumstances but lots of people do it safely and successfully every day. Under some circumstances it's a bad idea, but if you do it right it's fine. It's such a fun topic that we have a 27 page sticky about it right on our little forum here.

[Geezer in NH]

Tumbling live ammo can turn old powders into dust and blow up a gun. Some years back (80's?) a .44 Magnum revolver blew up after the ammo had spent a year or so in the glove box of an off road truck. When the remaining ammo was broken down they found engine vibration and bouncing over rough ground had turned the powder to dust.
Ammonia fumes from solvents can seep into an unsealed case neck.

I'd pull the bullets, dump the powder, then spray Penetrating oil into the case to deaden the primers before de-capping.
I'm fairing sure you can build a more accurate load using fresh powder and primers.

Internet falsehood

[Multigunner]

Nothing internet about it. As pointed out by others stories of powder turned to dust by vibration pre date the internet.
The British had serious problems with both black powder cylinder (when the compressed powder cylinder fractured the cartridge detonated on ignition ) and early Cordite loaded .303 cartridges, because the original Cordite formula left the strands brittle, this was corrected in later MTD and similar formulas.

Some powders may be far more resistant to crumbling into powder than others, but every time I've emptied a container of single base powder I've found dusty residue clinging to the interior. Ball powders and similar double base powders use Nitro-glycerin as a plasticizer as well as an energetic component and the granules are tougher than single base flake of extruded tube powders.

I can't see any reason to tumble rounds that aren't so corroded I'd as soon junk them any way. I clean up old cases by hand using a rag impregnated with white cerium oxide polishing compound.
That way I can inspect the surface of the case as I clean it up.

In a previous discussion on this a UK veteran mentioned his armored scout outfit always discarded un used ammo after two weeks of patrol duty. Apparently they did this to avoid possible problems with ammo bounced around in high temperature environments.

Those who insist on abusing ammunition in a manner it was not intended for can go right ahead, If the powder is of a sort that's resistant to breaking up and hasn't degraded in storage, worst that might happen is poor accuracy and perhaps a bent op rod. If the powder is a degraded single base, or in the case of some Foreign 7.62 NATO ammo loaded with WW2 surplus German flake powder and the powder was on its last legs before that ammo was manufactured fifty years ago who knows what might happen.

I tried cleaning up a batch of 7.62 like that years ago and found the cases were corroded inside and you could crush them between finger and thumb. The powder smelled like cat urine. Even the gilding metal cladding peeled off the steel jackets.
A case can polish up nice yet the ammo be severely degraded on the inside.

From the description the ammo in question wasn't that well stored.

[OptimusPanda]

Anyone know if this old match ammo had crimped primers? I can clearly see that they have been seal with a red sealant. I have never deprimed a live primer that has been crimped in the pocket. I cant imagine it being all that dangerous even if a universal decapper set it off (assuming rudimentary safety precautions like glasses).

[Herb in Pa]

Well said Multigunner, if someone wants to use a perfectly good rife as a test bed for a science project..........so be it. Like running recaps on a Ferrari!

[BattleRife]

That ammo doesn't look bad to me at all. It's dirty from things around it corroding and detiorating, but I don't see any indication of damage to the ammo itself. I would clean it up and shoot it.

The stuff about tumbling ammo changing the burning is definitely not an internet falsehood: I've seen that message posted in print dating back to at least the 70's. But it certainly does have all the signs of a falsehood. Like fatelk I've read the postings of several people who have designed experiments to challenge the theory, some of them tumbling single & double based powders in handgun and rifle cartridges for several months. None of them was able to perceive any change in the characteristics of the ammunition. On the other hand, I've yet to see or hear a single first account of tumbling or vibrating a cartridge causing problems. Sounds like a wive's tale to me.

The British .303 Mk 8Z cartridge was designed for the Vickers machine gun and reportedly was noticeablely hot if used in an Enfield rifle, but I've never heard that it actually was hard on the gun in any way.

[Char-Gar]

I have cleaned several thousand rounds more corroded that those pictured. Steel will will do it as well as using a fine wire wheel on the grinder.

[M-Tecs]

Post #30 has some good info on the effect of tumbling loaded ammo http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ded-ammo/page2

[fatelk]

Post #30 has some good info on the effect of tumbling loaded ammo http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ded-ammo/page2

Thank you for posting that. Those threads had more and better info than I came up with. It's interesting that this controversy has been going on for so many years, so many people have experimented with it and argued about it. Anything I could say would just be rehashing a worn out controversy. In the end there will always be those that do it cautiously and safely without any troubles, damage, or loss of accuracy. And there will be those who say but, but, but, it must be dangerous- I'm sure it is! To each their own.

Anyone know if this old match ammo had crimped primers? I can clearly see that they have been seal with a red sealant. I have never deprimed a live primer that has been crimped in the pocket. I cant imagine it being all that dangerous even if a universal decapper set it off (assuming rudimentary safety precautions like glasses).

What's the headstamp? I don't know that I've seen any USGI match brass that was ever crimped, so I expect not. I would like to tell you that decapping live primers is safe, even crimped (with your basic safety precautions), but surely someone else will come along and tell you that certainly it's not- you'll shoot your eye out!

[fatelk]

Well said Multigunner, if someone wants to use a perfectly good rife as a test bed for a science project..........so be it. Like running recaps on a Ferrari!

Then again, under most conditions recaps are quite safe. I wouldn't use them on a high performance car like a Ferrari of course... but neither would I try to make unsalvageable ammo useful by tumbling it.

I just thought that the ammo in question looked very salvageable, to me. It sounds like the OP is planning on, or in the process of, tearing it down for components. Though it might not be what I would do, it's certainly not a bad decision. If you're not comfortable with shooting it as is, a little time and the cost of some new powder and primers is small price for the confidence of having good ammo.

[Char-Gar]

When I bought my M1 a couple ammo boxes of odds and ends were thrown in with the sale. Among them was a metal linked belt with 30-06 AP, and a whole bunch of boxes of match ammo and many loose rounds like the ones in the picture. These have very clearly been stored improperly. The sealed ammo cans that held it all also once contained empty surplus solvent and oil cans which appear to have leaked into the ammo cans they were stored in. There's maybe 500 rounds total, all like this a mix of AP and match. Anyone had any luck cleaning these up, or tearing them apart? Would the brass and bullets still be useful after its poor storage exposed to whatever started eating away at it? If I can save the brass and bullets that might be the best outcome. Otherwise, if the whole lot is a lost cause where would one dispose of it?
Attachment 147920

PM me for my shipping address. I will pay the postage/shipping and dispose of it properly.

[pretzelxx]

You should see the corrosion we had on some 50 Cal stuff we ran through our guns a month or so ago. I was paranoid it would kill someone. It all shot fine! Clean it up first tho imo.

[Got-R-Did]

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=119371
I encourage you to read the entire thread, and draw your own conclusions.
Got-R-Did.