Please help me start reloading for 45 colt for my SAAs

[will52100]

Not saying the RM can't handle it, just saying I'd be worried about the gun getting loose over time, battering the wedge, arbor stretch. A full house 45 colt with 38 grains of 3F and a 250 grain bullet is a stout combination. The weakness of the open top design is that every time you fire it your trying to tear the barrel off the end of the arbor. Don't get me wrong, I've got a bunch of colt designs and love them. My load for mine is (without checking my load data) 28 grains of BP and a 200 grain big lube bullet in 44 colt. The Uberti RM is slightly larger than the original to chamber 45 colt, the original would sometimes break through the locking lug on the cylinder in 44 colt. Still doesn't mean it can digest a steady diet of heavy loads without shooting loose.

A SAA is a good bit stronger with a solid frame, but even they can shoot loose over time with heavy loads. My basic load for all my 45 colt stuff, and this includes a 1860 Henry, is 36 grains 2F Graf's BP and a big lube 250 grain bullet.

About as much as I can stuff in the case and still seat a 250 bullet so it'll function in my Henry is 38 grains 3F. That's also a good short range deer load out of the Henry. That comes close to the original loads, if you could get your hands on old ballon head brass you could replicate the 40 grain load with 2F swiss and less compression.

[StrawHat]

Why would you think a new production 1860RM wouldn't be able to handle full loads?

What would a load recipe be for a close to original 45 colt load in 1870s-1880s?

Just found in a search the original load was 40 grains of BP behind a 250gr slug. I also read they backed it up to 30 grains after several failures?

While the "original" load was 40 grains of black powder, the 1860 was never converted to use the 45 long Colt cartridge. There was not enough room in the cylinder. The original conversions and the Richard, Richards and Mason, and Open Tops were chambered for the 44 Colt cartridge, a 200 - 210 grain heeled bullet over 21 grains of black powder.

The 45 long Colt was introduced in 1873 at the request of the Army who was looking for a new revolver. They wanted an inside lubed bullet of at least 45 caliber. This caused Colts to redesign the 44 Colt and create the 45 long Colt.

The charge was reduced because S&W introduced a revolver that used a shorter cartridge, the 45 S&W and the shorter cartridge could be used in the Colt revolver.

It can very easily be argued that the 45 caliber cartridge that gave the 45 long Colt it''s reputation as a manstopper was indeed the 45 S&W.

Kevin

[Stopsign32v]

Ah that's right! I forgot about the original 1860s being a 44 colt design. However during my researches before purchasing I learned the modern 44 colt isn't what the originals were. I could be wrong but I believe I read the modern 45 colt bullet is a more accurate size over the modern 44 colt and that is why I went with it. Either way I'm looking for accurate historical loads so would I be better suited to shoot a lighter weight 45 colt boolit? Seems it would make sense...

[will52100]

Your part rite. My first 60 RM I had to send back, it had a 44 colt cylinder and a 45 barrel. That would have been an accurate representation of the originals. The 44 colt used a heel based bullet that was aprox. .450 diameter, with a smaller heel crimped into the 44 case. Basically it was made the way a 22LR is today. The same is true with the 51 navy conversions. The modern reproductions use inside lubed bullets and that makes loading a lot faster and easier, not to mention easier to keep ammo clean.

[starmac]

You are starting with a lot more info available than many of us had. and about as easy as a caliber as they come.
I started waaaaaay before the internet as a teenager with knowing anyone that reloaded. A 10 dollar lee reloader, a bow of bullets, a pound of powder, some primers , and what I would call a pamphlet for a manual, coupled with the desire to shoot more than I could afford.
It is not rocket science, just use your head, be safe and have fun, eventually it will cost you a small fortune. lol

[Stopsign32v]

What would be a 45 colt load to imitate an original 44 colt? If that makes any sense at all.

[tja6435]

The current Hornady reloading manual has quite a section in the beginning of the book that'll explain the ins and outs of reloading. How it works, how to do it, etc.

[will52100]

If you can get Cowboy special brass it works good for reduced black powder loads, but I don't think it's being made anymore? It's basically shortened 45 colt brass to ACP length. If you shorten normal 45 colt brass it gets pretty thick, the cowboy special is thin at the mouth.

Simplest way is to load a 200 grain bullet on a 30 grain charge with some filler like corn meal on top to take up space. Or use schofield brass if the rims aren't too big for the 60 RM cylinder. The cowboy special brass or schofield brass would save having to use a filler and save a reloading step.

[doc1876]

someone stated that there were no bp books, this is just one
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Gun_Books....aspx?CAT=4146

I have not read this specific one, however, I have digested everything else that I can, and I can tell you, it ain't that hard to be successful at it.

.45 LC

200gRNFP

20g FFFg black

the big issue is cleaning your cases immediately after shooting. there are many tricks for this, including dumping them into a jug with dish soap while still at the range.
Welcome to the dark side!!

[Stopsign32v]

I will probably just take a jug of water and soap and throw them in at the range until I get home. I read Murphy's oil is good?

Thanks for the link to the book, I will most definitely grab it and others.

[Stopsign32v]

Forgot to ask, where are you located? A few minutes with someone showing you how they load blackpowder would be very educational.

Sorry I didn't see this until reading back trough the thread. You guys thankfully loaded me down to so much info so fast that I couldn't keep up because of work. I'm in the upper part of South Carolina.

[will52100]

No worries, it can all be a little overwhelming at first. I learned to reload on a Lyman 610? I think it was, then went from there.

As far the brass, no need to drop in water at the range, just don't forget about it for a couple of days. Ask me how I know that's a bad idea! Normally I hand deprime at home watching TV and drop into a bucket of water. Sometimes I add a little Dawn, other times not. I've let brass sit covered with water for over a month with no issues before cleaning. Since I wet tumble with stainless steel media I like having the primers punched out and the SS media cleans the primer pockets as well and makes drying easier after cleaning. Here's the hand de capper I use. I don't think he's making them anymore, but anybody that's handy should be able to make one. http://s329.photobucket.com/user/dec.../hand.jpg.html

Forgot to add, having the primers out and clean primer pockets saves cleaning after sizing and makes my Load Master run smooth and clean with out gunk falling down in the action. Not a big issue with a single stage, but does mean you don't have to clean primer pockets by hand. Also means the cases dry better and you don't risk having water trapped in the pocket when you go to load.

[will52100]

Also check out http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php They've got sections on reloading, black powder and on open top colts. Some good info there.

[Stopsign32v]

Keeping in mind I've never reloaded, I do have my single stage press mounted and ready, just need to dies. Anyways it came with a primer loading add on. It looks like you send the casing up to be deprimed, the spent primer falls down the tube, then on the way down the primer seater I guess we will call it, swings over and primes the deprimed casing. Sounds cool but how would the primer pocket ever get cleaned?

[Springfield]

Primer pockets usually don't need much cleaning. I get at least 8 loadings without any problem. Usually the cases are so dinged up by then you don't want to reload them anyway, especially with 44-40 cases like I mostly do. At least once a year I need to load BP for my wife in 45 Colt as we go to the California Black Powder Shoot-out. I like to keep her bullets down to 200 grains to eliminate some recoil in her pistols, rifles don't matter that much, plus the heavier bullets in the rifle seem to keep the blow-by down a bit.
As a new BP shooter, one of the most important things for you to remember is to use a BP compatible lube. In pistols you don't have to use a bullet with a larger than usual lube groove as the barrels are pretty short and most bullet will carry enough lube to get the job done, at least for 30 or so rounds, maybe more. But the usual crayon type lube on most commercial bullets will turn to a hard substance that will ruin your accuracy in short order.
As far as fffg or ffg, both will work fine. The fffg will usually burn more completely, giving a bit more recoil but will keep the gun cleaner. I prefer ffg as I like the extra smoke and flames. Just make sure you use enough powder to eliminate the air space. Personally, I think it might be a myth when it comes to BP cartridge ammo, but I like full cases anyway.
If you use a very soft bullet, the diameter doesn't seem to matter too much as long as it will chamber, and most 45 Colts seem to have generous chambers. 20-1 is OK, 40-1 works fine if not better for me, but might be a bit more difficult to cast with.
Cleaning the guns is actually very easy. I just remove the cylinders on mine and clean just like a smokeless gun, except I use a water/Murphys oil soap mixture instead of Hoppes or some other smokeless solvent. Then I like to oil everything with Breakfree. There are probably better rust preventative oils out there but I shoot my BP guns at least every month so they don't really get a chance to rust, and never have. I have, on more than one occasion, shot my guns and then put them away for a couple of weeks, and then shot another match, with no ill effects. So I trust my cleaning method.

[Stopsign32v]

Thanks, I like the idea of using ffg as I could use it then for both revolvers and my 10 gauge.

[Green Frog]

I will probably just take a jug of water and soap and throw them in at the range until I get home. I read Murphy's oil is good?

Thanks for the link to the book, I will most definitely grab it and others.

A good squirt of Dawn™ (I like the blue kind) in water is what I use most often. I shoot brass cases in 50 caliber Maynard (the percussion kind.) I guess other soaps work as well, but this is my go-to.

Froggie

[will52100]

I disagree on the primer pockets not needing much cleaning. With smokeless, yes you can get by for a long time without cleaning. With black powder, fouling builds up quick in them. But even more importantly is since your using water to flush the corrosive residue out of the cases the spent primmer can trap moister even after the rest of the case is dry. Not a big deal to let dry a little longer, but I like having the primer out and cleaning the pocket at the same time as the case.

You've got a good point on putting the guns up without cleaning. I don't know about the subs, from what I understand they need to be cleaned ASAP because they will corrode by chemical action. Black powder is hydroscopic and will absorb moister and that will react with the salts and sulfur in the fouling. No moister present, no corrosion. I actually had a early pietta 1860 that I shot and a spring broke. I put it up because at the time there was no internet or easily available parts. It sat uncleaned in the house for roughly 15 years.(I was disgusted with it and a teenager). I got interested in black powder again and decided to see if it was salvageable. I was expecting the cylinder and barrel to be like a sewer pipe, but it cleaned up with no more than a spot or two of faint corrosion. Now I don't go more than a day or two without cleaning.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Lots of good advice here. The .45 Colt black powder cartridge was very powerful and I would not shoot it with much in an open top conversion. A .45 Colt in an open top conversion is not authentic to the frontier. The .44 conversions were chambered in the .44 Colt which is a 200 gr. boolit at 830 to 860 fps. The conversions were made from cap and ball guns which were designed to shoot mostly round ball .454" lead with 30 gr of black powder at about 800 fps which generated much less stress on the design. I shoot the Colt Army 1860's with round ball and 25-30 gr. of FFFg Goex and they shoot great.

For your open top conversion I'd get Starline Schofield brass which I have and it works great for me. Lube your boolits with SPG and try to get a 200 gr boolit, preferably a RN just to keep it authentic. If your not casting your own yet, get a sizer luber and order your boolits without lube. Fill the case with FFFg or FFg and you should be fine. I don't fool with wads in revolvers but use wads in my .45-70 Sharps which only sees black powder.

After shooting black powder I run hot water through the action and then douse the guns with Hoppe's black powder solvent. It's really simple and a great way to shoot black powder.

With the .45 Colt cartridge in black powder, I recommend you use the solid frame or the "strapped model" as they called it on the frontier. I have over a half dozen Colt's SAA's and shoot them a lot and have been shooting them for over 30 years. Be prepared to not enjoy shooting the full .45 Colt cartridge with black powder in the shorter barrel gun a lot. Colt's sold more SAA's in the 10 years after the turn of the century than they did in the 20 years before the turn of the century. The big difference is the choice of preference between the long 7 1/2" barrels which dominated the pre turn of the century black powder guns and the switch in preference to the short barreled guns which dominated the market choice after the turn of the century with the entry of smokeless powder. Don't get me wrong, the short barrel strapped solid frame can handle the full load .45 Colt black powder all day, all I'm saying is that it's not pleasant. Your Schofield load which is a 230 gr. boolit at about 850 fps with black powder is very pleasant in the short 4 3/4" - 5 1/2" barrels. For the full .45 Colt black powder shooting, I use my 7 1/2" and it's very rewarding. Trying to have a range session with a short barreled .45 Colt filled with black powder in the longer .45 Colt brass is not a desirable day. Just as asking your open top, with a frame size originally intended for .36 caliber and with a thin walled .45 Colt cylinder to handle full loads is a tall order. The 1860 frame and cylinder came from the Navy which was originally designed as a .36 calibre. Colt's rebated the front side of the cylinder to accept .44 caliber balls as a muzzle loader. Your modern gun has much stronger steel but I would not shoot full loads through it much.