454 casull reduced loads

[cosmoline one]

RobS,
I should have listened to you. I tried 16 grains & 17 grains & got squib loads & bullets stuck in the barrel! 16 grains actually sent it further down the barrel than 17! Now I'm thinking 18gr. won't even be enough.On a side note, 7.6 grs. of 700x got good accuracy at 50 yds but only around 820fps(but still with low ES)
I'm puzzled by the squibs. Could using PC'd bullets make them "hard" and be the cause?-Though I'm using them in the 700x loads too & they're not having squibs(although they're slower than I expected)

[44man]

RobS,
I should have listened to you. I tried 16 grains & 17 grains & got squib loads & bullets stuck in the barrel! 16 grains actually sent it further down the barrel than 17! Now I'm thinking 18gr. won't even be enough.On a side note, 7.6 grs. of 700x got good accuracy at 50 yds but only around 820fps(but still with low ES)
I'm puzzled by the squibs. Could using PC'd bullets make them "hard" and be the cause?-Though I'm using them in the 700x loads too & they're not having squibs(although they're slower than I expected)

It is the SR primer. It has a lot of pressure, forces the boolits out, giving too much air space that acts like a reduced load, then it runs out of fire.
To solve all problems, cut down .460 brass and use LP mag primers. That will allow all book listed loads with any powder.
If you stay with SR primers, you need hotter loads, more powder.

[44MAG#1]

Load the 454 Casull to slightly below the 44 Mag with similar bullets sectional density wise and use 2400 because that IS A REDUCED LOAD in a 454 Casull. If you want cream puff loads in the 45 Colt range use 45 Colt cream puff loads and use 45 Colt brass and keep the chambers clean.
Very Simple.
Dont make something hard out of something simple.

[lar45]

Your reported velocities are way lower than what might be expected. Have you tried a fresh battery in your chronograph?
Maybe double check the powder weights on another scale. Are you useing a digital scale or a balance beam scale? If you are useing a digital scale make sure that it has time to warm up and also be sure that it is on a firm flat surface. Make sure that you have a good battery in the scale also.
For your squibs, have you tried switching to a mag primer?
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ may have some loads to try for low velocity 454

[44man]

Lar, we got the squib loads using starting loads from Hodgdon with 296 and H110, tried all SR primers, mags, etc. Only at or near max did they go away.
2400 should be the best way to go.
Strange the OP had trouble with a faster powder.
Once we went to LP primers, even the Fed 150 ignited starting loads but the 155 was more accurate. We exceeded accuracy we ever got from a SR primer.
I then took the Fed 155 to 55,000 pressure with no problems. Primers looked normal.

[44man]

I made a cutter to open pockets on .454 brass but won't do that again, too hard. Still a chore to cut .460 brass but better then trying to get pockets even.

[cosmoline one]

Lar45, I don't think theres anything wrong w/the chrono. 22lr fired at the same outing showed expected velocities.
I'm trying to decide now if I should try mag primers or up the powder charges(leaning towards more 2400)

[44MAG#1]

Cosmoline One:

Let me say this. You may ignore what I post in post #23 but it is good advice. Even some of Hodgdons loads with the slow burning powder is too light.
Even with the fast powders in that case will be position sensitive to a greater degree than they are in a 45 Colt case.
In the 45 Colt, even with Bullseye, I have gotten wide velocity swings depending where I Positioned the powder when chronoing. And no it wasn't because of poor loading practicies either.
People just won't try the little experiment I sometimes bring up because they just don't want to really know the truth.
The 454 case is even worse because it is longer. Henceforth powder that can be a longer way from the primer than a 45 Colt case.
Even with a heavy (340 gr) bullet and Red Dot that some jewel, on here, mentioned one time in the 45 Colt the velocity swing was excessive if loaded to safe Blackhawk levels. With 2400 it wasn't at safe Blackhawk levels.
Oh yes, I have two 454's and did have 4 at one time and love them. So I am not a hater of the 454 Casull.

[44man]

44mag, so true. It can't be because the book says otherwise. In my opinion all starting loads for the .454 should be removed. They were developed in test barrels.
I do not hate the caliber, I hate the brass.
A lot of my friends come over with them and until I found the problems, I had to watch every shot they took so I could tell them "STOP." I still keep a brass rod and little hammer in my shooting bag.
An interesting situation came up when a friend brought over factory cast loads, I won't tell the make here but they had full profile crimps that dug near 1/8" long into the boolits. I asked why so much crimp? I was right again because we never got more then 2 shots before locking up a SRH, Freedom would lock with 1 shot. Dowel and little hammer to get boolits back in the cylinder so the gun could be opened. Not a safe feeling doing that!
Now imagine a bear hunt!
I have always said more then anyone wants to hear that brass is your enemy.
Remember the .500 S&W was punched for a LP primer? Then they went to LR primers so guys loaded LR primers in LP brass and got slam fires. Not good for the gun or fingers!
When anyone thinks they know too much, they get in trouble.
Gun writers today know so little it is scary.

[cosmoline one]

44Mag,
I'm not ignoring you. As I said I am leaning toward increasing the 2400 load (using 44 mag as a guide)I was thinking of starting at 20.0 grains w/the 255gr swc.

[cosmoline one]

Update: I tried 21.0grns x A2400 and still got a squib! However, 20.0 grns xA2400 w/a CCI Magnum small rifle primer set off fine. I'm going to use these from now on.

[44MAG#1]

I would be shooting for 22 to 23 gr 2400 with a light bullet like the 250 to 250 gr.
One would use around 21 of 2400 in a 44 Mag with the same bullet weight. In a smaller diameter case and shorter too than the 454.

[44man]

Update: I tried 21.0grns x A2400 and still got a squib! However, 20.0 grns xA2400 w/a CCI Magnum small rifle primer set off fine. I'm going to use these from now on.

Not enough, remember a lot will go off but there is always the one in there. My book shows 25 gr to start with a 250 to 260 gr. Going to 30 and 29 gr resp., depending on bullet construction of jacketed.
Can you imagine needing to work the hammer like mad when you smell bear breath? One failure and you need a box of pepper in your pocket. Same with a crimp failure.
Nothing has worked better then case tension.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't know the powder characteristics of A2400 but with A1680 you need to run that powder close to maximum, as it needs pressure to burn efficiently. In the 500 S&W if you go below the recommended starting loads with A1680 you will get a few squibs with a magnum large pistol primer - less with a large rifle primer. Once you go with the minimum start load everything functions just fine with either primer. Might have something to do with your problem using the A2400.

[cosmoline one]

Ok, 23.0 grains of 2400 w/cci mag srprimers is getting me close to 1100 fps.
Also, using 700x w/mag primers I'm getting close to 1000fps. I'm already over published data for 45 colt in rugers/t.centers, But since this is a SRH 454 casull, and I'm getting low SD(20-30), I think I'm gonna go a little higher until I get over 1000fps or Sd gets too high.(got a lot of 700x). Thanks for all the helpful responces.The depth of knowledge on here is great.

[44man]

Buy .460 brass and cut it down to see how great the .454 can be. It was a mistake to go with a SR primer but remember Dick used duplex and triplex loads to test with Bullseye next to the primer. He made a lot of scrap metal until the Freedom was made.
I still say the SR primer is wrong.

[dmize]

Could have saved a lot of time,frustration and money just buying 45 Colt brass.

[freebullet]

300gr pb hp in casull brass over 9gr tightgroup =joy for me srh

[historicfirearms]

Buy .460 brass and cut it down to see how great the .454 can be. It was a mistake to go with a SR primer but remember Dick used duplex and triplex loads to test with Bullseye next to the primer. He made a lot of scrap metal until the Freedom was made.
I still say the SR primer is wrong.

I am having a hard time understanding how this would help. All of the 460 brass I see for sale is made for Large Rifle primers. You can substitute a small pistol primer in place of a small rifle primer, but you cannot substitute a large pistol primer in place of a large rifle primer. What type of primers are you running in the cut down 460 brass? Can you explain the advantage over using a small pistol (magnum) primer in 454 brass? Not trying to be contrarian, just trying to understand.

[44man]

I am having a hard time understanding how this would help. All of the 460 brass I see for sale is made for Large Rifle primers. You can substitute a small pistol primer in place of a small rifle primer, but you cannot substitute a large pistol primer in place of a large rifle primer. What type of primers are you running in the cut down 460 brass? Can you explain the advantage over using a small pistol (magnum) primer in 454 brass? Not trying to be contrarian, just trying to understand.

Oh yes, you can use LP in LR brass.
The .475 is made from 45-70 brass with a LR pocket but you dare not use LR primers in it, info from powder makers, dangerous pressure spikes. The 45-70 is also good with LP primers.
My .500 JRH brass is cut down .500 S&W brass with LR pockets and I only use LP mags in it.
The .454 will work best with .460 brass and a LP mag, I like the Fed 155.
There is only .010" difference in the height of the primers. Just seat to bottom.
The problem with a SR primer in the .454 is it has enough pressure to push out boolits into the bore but runs out of fire if air space is increased. Needs max loads so powder does not get away from fire. The SR primer is so bad you can get SEE events but the gap saves your gun. But stick a boolit without notice and shoot another behind it and your .454 will explode.
I don't do this for fun.
It works the other way too and you can have more primer then needed. friend brought a S&W in .45 ACP and it shot terrible. I studied the little case and told him "too much primer." I cut bushings for a SP primer and cut groups by 3X. He bought 1000 Speer cases for SP primers. Even works better in his 1911.
Yes a LP mag is right at home in .460 brass. You will thank me in the end. I go to other sites to see my stuff repeated all the time. My goal is to help all and it is good, I feel good.