Forming 40-65 from 45-70 Starline brass

[SgtDog0311]

I've just picked up a Marlin 1895 in 40-65 and having some of the same issues mentioned here. Cowboy dies are not taking the reformed Starline down enough just in front of the rim, with a ring visible right at the start of the web.

Reading some of the cures and but I'm not familiar with the Redding F&T, what is the full name of that die? Googling Redding F&T is got giving me any answers.

Another thing I was surprised at when reforming: when I've got all I can get with the Cowboy sizing die I find the outside diameter of my case neck is squeezed down all the way to .420. I didn't expect that. My bore is .401 and my grooves are .408. Didn't expect the neck to get sized down that far.

[EDG]

I am not surprised your cases were mashed down that far. There is one option to think about. RCBS trim dies are usually .010 larger than the FL dies in the neck area only. However they are very expensive and I would call RCBS and verify the neck ID before I buy one.

The Redding die is a trim die or it might also be called a form and trim die.

I have had the Redding trim die and two Redding FL resizing dies. They were exactly the same size inside so you get no forming advantage. The trim die does let you trim the brass with a file though.

If you are after a real form and trim die you might check with CH. He offers the dies in his catalog but call him and ask what size it is inside before you buy one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The original barrels for .40-65 had a .406 groove diameter. So dies for the early chambers are for smaller bullets.
Modern .40-65s all seem to be .408 groove diameter.

Browning chambers are different from all the other chambers in one respect.
The chamber appears to be reamed straight for about .150 to .200 immediately ahead of the rims.
A Browning chamber also had a straight neck about .500 long where the original drawing appears to be a silly straight taper from the case head to the mouth. You could order Browning specific (custom) dies at one time but they were very expensive. I have been watching Ebay for about 15 years and I have never seen a set for sale. I get by with ordinary dies just fine.
Either RCBS Cowboy or Lymans should be just fine.


I have Lyman, Redding, RCBS Cowboy and 1950s RCBS for the .406 bullets.
They are all very similar internally except for the following:
The seating die for the old style die would not allow you to use a .410 bullet.
The REDDING FL dies measure .416 in the neck sizing section.
The RCBS Cowboy and the Lyman's measure .421

The max bullet dia for the RCBS Cowboy seater die is .412
The max bullet dia for the RCBS old timer seater die is .408
The max bullet dia for the Redding seater is ............. .410
The max bullet dia for the Lyman seater is .............. .412

There is also a Ron Long version (both chambers and dies) though I have no details on it.

Maybe some of the 40-65 guys can chime in. I am sure there are other chambers for this round.

If you have a tight chamber you can either swage the case heads a little or remove the barrel and polish the chamber in a lathe.
It is easy to check the chamber diameter with a set of .001 increment gauge pins and polish it to fit the brass - or you can just modify the brass.
Just make sure a real professional does the work if you modify the barrel.
Some brands of brass like Federal might be small enough to work as is.

Marlin used to term the .40-65WCF the .40-60 Marlin. I have their table of 1909 showing that their groove diameter was .397 and rifling was .0025in. deep, adding up to .402 groove diameter. That is described as being for the 95 rifle (which unlike some had a "hard steel", presumably nickel steel, barrel), and I don't know if Marlin-Ballards were the same. But it seems unlikely that they wouldn't be. Shilen make barrel blanks with .403 grooves. With a bullet of this diameter thick brass would surely be no disadvantage, and perhaps an advantage.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've just picked up a Marlin 1895 in 40-65 and having some of the same issues mentioned here. Cowboy dies are not taking the reformed Starline down enough just in front of the rim, with a ring visible right at the start of the web.

Reading some of the cures and but I'm not familiar with the Redding F&T, what is the full name of that die? Googling Redding F&T is got giving me any answers.

Another thing I was surprised at when reforming: when I've got all I can get with the Cowboy sizing die I find the outside diameter of my case neck is squeezed down all the way to .420. I didn't expect that. My bore is .401 and my grooves are .408. Didn't expect the neck to get sized down that far.

You might get away with grinding down the top of a shellholder to drive the case in further on the final pass. Or make up a mandrel with 13/32in. rod or tubing (e.g. the K&S tubing which is common on eBay) and rotate the ring against a sharp carpenter's rebate plane. You could do it by hand or hold the mandrel in an electric screwdriver.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-St...item43e2d2a4d9

[smokeywolf]

I've just picked up a Marlin 1895 in 40-65 and having some of the same issues mentioned here. Cowboy dies are not taking the reformed Starline down enough just in front of the rim, with a ring visible right at the start of the web.

Reading some of the cures and but I'm not familiar with the Redding F&T, what is the full name of that die? Googling Redding F&T is got giving me any answers.

Another thing I was surprised at when reforming: when I've got all I can get with the Cowboy sizing die I find the outside diameter of my case neck is squeezed down all the way to .420. I didn't expect that. My bore is .401 and my grooves are .408. Didn't expect the neck to get sized down that far.

Although I would be much more inclined to purchase the 40-65 Starline brass from Starline or Midway, if you're dead set on reforming 45-70 to chamber in your Marlin, from what I've read in "Ken Waters' Pet Loads" and also on the internet, a Lyman X-17 shell holder will get the base of the 45-70 far enough into your sizing die to squeeze that last few thousandths of fat base down so that it will chamber.

[country gent]

There is a small area that is not sized at all with a reloaders press and 7/8"X14 dies. you loose 1/8" to te shell holder and about .050-.060 to the radious in the dies mouth. Several ways to cure this small area depends on how bad it actually is. If just a small amount , the die can be faced down removing the radious and some ground of the shell holder. this can gain another .030-.080 depth on the case with this combination. Another more sure way is use the die in an arbhor press. You need a die with large screw decapping stem hole and a 7?8"14 nut. Put the case in the die and press to rim with the ahrbor press then screw nut on about 1/2 way and with a smooth rod turn it over and push case out. Once sized down fully the case mouth dia can be regulated thru the sizing ide, case body taper and how deep you run the case into the dies. Start out around 1/2" above shell holder size a case and measure case mouth dia. then lower die 1 turn size and remeasure, this tells you how much 1 turn changes case mouth dia. you can now figure how many turns or keep going trial and error to where you want to be.

[SgtDog0311]

EDG, thanks for the explanation. Must have been tired last night since I now see the full name was identified on the first page. I’m not really looking for trim die. I use a Wilson for trimming. Even there I’m afraid to order a case holder without sending them some fire formed cases.
Still, I wouldn’t mind a larger neck to start out with so I’ll check with RCBS on the size of their F&T. Thanks!

Ballistics, I’ve sized deeper with the washer trick after getting as far as the shellholder would allow. I DID not go as far as die-meeting-rim yet. May give that a try next. Got as far as the lever closing without too much resistance but I still see space between rim and barrel face. Hope I don’t have headspace issues – but that is another problem to explore.

Smokeywolf, I’m not at all dead set on reforming. I’d really rather have the proper headstamp in fact. Got a friend sending me a handful to try before I order whichever works. One thing I’ve read is that the reformed 45-70 allows you to fill your chamber with brass whereas Starline’s 40-65 falls a little short after being fireformed the first time. From their own measurements on the site they look to fall a little short out of the box. Can’t vouch for any of it in person. Soon as I have a couple pieces I’ll fire form one and do a pound cast with it. I’ll know what length I actually need after that. Gonna pick up a Lyman X-17 on my way through Sandpoint later this week. The brass should be at my mailbox when I get back so I’ll report how they worked out.

cg, Neck sizing as you describe will be the rule after I get there.

Thanks for the answers and input.

[smokeywolf]

SgtDog0311, Starline brass has the reputation of being a little on the stiff side right from the factory. Most folks shooting black powder or black powder pressures find it best to anneal the brass first.

[SgtDog0311]

Always anneal smokeywolf... be a good reminder to do the next batch for sure. Thanks!