Hot loading .38 spl full wad cutters

[John McCorkle]

I checked the Lyman cast handbook just a sec ago and they show several loads with 148 grain wadcutters going 950+ ish...same with the Lee handloading book. Haven't checked Hornady book yet but will do and get back with you.

Lyman lists hp38 (231), Tite group, and bullesye as best powders for not just wadcutters but 38 spc in general across all projos cast

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[Dieselhorses]

Use H110 and crimp hard. 110 is slow burning, crimp generously to powder time to burn.

[JBinMN]

I checked the Lyman cast handbook just a sec ago and they show several loads with 148 grain wadcutters going 950+ ish...same with the Lee handloading book. Haven't checked Hornady book yet but will do and get back with you.



Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

I would have a look at what was used for a "test" barrel to get that velocity & compare it to what you are going to be using. IOW, Those fps numbers could have come from a 6" universal barrel, etc. & not a 4" that you might want to use, etc..

G'Luck!

[John McCorkle]

I would have a look at what was used for a "test" barrel to get that velocity & compare it to what you are going to be using. IOW, Those fps numbers could have come from a 6" universal barrel, etc. & not a 4" that you might want to use, etc..

G'Luck!

Lyman says 4" and Lee does not show but with similar loads and velocities shown I imagine it's a 4" as well

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[JBinMN]

Lyman says 4" and Lee does not show but with similar loads and velocities shown I imagine it's a 4" as well

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

OK. Just thought to mention it in case it was a factor.


BTW, I currently & have been carrying reloads in my 38 & 357 snubbies with the first 5 rounds as 148 DEWC followed by JHP in speedloaders for some time. I am running them at max. recommended load data. I may change to factory ammo after reading about the powder burns info in the link offered above, as I was not aware of that info. Thanks to the KenH for offering it.

[Thumbcocker]

One Lyman manual listed right at 1000 fps with 358495 and 231.

[RED BEAR]

be careful frank v i said about the same thing once before and bout started a war. i will admit no one has been prosecuted for using them. but have talked to a couple of lawyers that claim that it was brought up in cases that they handled and it cost the clients to have experts testify to debunk this. have read on different forums about the same thing. i can tell you that the facts of a case are not always why you maybe charged or not the location matters. i near by locality charged a pearson because he opened the door and shot a robber. in my locality a local store owner chased a robber down the block and shot and killed him nothing said about it. if you prefer hand loads then thats what you should carry. i personally will stick to factory ammo for my carry gun. i have been having a lot of primmer problems lately not sure why. but just feel more comfortable with factory ammo.

[waco]

It's almost a full WC. Looks like it would hit hard!
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=36-155B-D.png

[Dale53]

This has been posted many times before. Ed Harris is a former Ruger development engineer and NRA Staffer. He has the experience and the knowledge. This article has become MY last word in the matter:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/...rge-wadcutter/

I am a "Certified Old Fart" and have hunted small game extensively with a full charge wadcutter decades before
the internet. I originally found the information on the "Full Charge Wadcutter" from a book, "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting", by Ed McGivern. The book did not give any details on the load because you could buy full charge wadcutters in factory ammo. However, after I used those loads on small game, it was a simple matter to cast my own bullets, reload, and use them. They worked then and still work now, brilliantly!

Ed Harris' article, as you will see, gives us the "why" and his recommendations are spot on with my real world experience on small game. The difference, in effect, compared to other common loads in the .38 Special are dramatic. The reason I mention small game, is that is where my real world experience comes from (local authorities have always frowned on using two legged bad guys as test subjects).

FWIW
Dale53

[gwpercle]

358432 Lyman wad cutter is what you need. NOE is doing a group buy on this boolit in solid and hollow point. You can find it here. http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index....pic,984.0.html

It's a 160 grain....or at least the one I bought a few years ago is, and it's a keeper.
This bullet shoots accurately in every 38 special and 357 magnum I own , even to point of aim in J-frame snub nosed S&W and fixed sighted model 64 S&W . I had a single cavity Lyman but when NOE made a run I jumped on a 4 cavity mould with both feet. It's just about all I load now.
The big hollow point version would look wicked. Mine is just the standard solid point version.
This is one design I really like. My J-frame is loaded up with them as we speak !
Gary

[Char-Gar]

Just a curiosity question. How much powder charge does it take to push a WC or SWC or RFN in 38 special through the body be it human or threatening animal you might consider for SD scenarios. Ideally bullet would stop just touching the opposite side of the body. Then all force would have been transferred, going all the way through and out the other side is just wasted powder.

What is a typical range for SD situation? In my house only needs to go 50 ft. at absolute longest possible range. With 20 ft. being more likely. I guess I wondering is there a need to push these rounds really hard or is that a myth?

You have asked a valid question and one I have pondered on. There are videos out there showing standard factory target wadcutters giving great penetation in gel. These little lead kegs are moving along at 650 or so fps. So, why soup them up to 850 as I do?

Humans comes in all sorts of sizes, and are shot in different places at different angles. I want a load that will give through and through penetration whatever the size and angle of shot placement. OK, that said, through and through is great in my home which is solid masonry block. It is also OK in the wide open spaces, but it is not OK in a people rich social environment.

There has been significant development of factory JHP loads that will give reliable expansion without over penetration. Therefore, in places when it is safe, I used full charge wadcutters, but otherwise use Speer 135 grain Gold Dot, Short Barrel loads.

[texasnative46]

To All,

Some 10-12 years ago, I encountered a Deputy Constable from Tyler, TX who was armed with a S&W Model 64HB, which was loaded with what he called "barrel bullets", i.e., what looked like a WC but in a 200 grain weight. The DC said that the bullets were loaded to about 800FPS.
I asked him if he had cast the boolits & he said that he had bought 300 of them at a Dallas gun-show. Neither he nor I know WHO cast the boolits NOR which mold was used.


He said that he had had to kill a very large & aggressive feral dog, of over 100#, with his revolver & stated that the 200Grain FWC upon exit from the body had made "a large bloody mouse-hole" & that the big dog fell down dead & hardly even kicked.
(As readers have doubtless guessed, I would like some of those "barrels" for close range SD.)

yours, tex

[JBinMN]

One thing to consider, if using any type of SD round, is that the goal is to be able to have the projectile travel 12 - 18 inches so that regardless of the position of the "center mass", the projectile has a likelihood of passing thru "non lethal" parts to get to the "lethal parts".

Of course, one does not want the round to continue with enough energy after pasing thru, IF it makes it thru a body & parts to have an effect on those who are "beyond" and may be possible "non targets". If that happens , one will have to deal with it, but stopping the offensive actions are the most important. So we all should try to not have "collateral damage" be involved if there comes a time to "get down & dirty" with someone who is trying to do serious bodily injury or death to others..

As an example about what I am trying to say,
If a person whom you need to stop, is turned a bit so that in order to hit "center mass" and only if you were to shoot thru their arm & into their body/center mass, the projectile has to have the energy to go thru that arm & into the chest cavity. That is the energy necessary for your SD round to do an effective job. If it only passed thru their arm & then stopped before getting past the rib cage & into where the round can cause more "lethality", then the rounds energy is insufficient...

All of this is well documented as far as I know & is the reason why the 12-18 inches is the rule for the FBI & other LEO organizations who find it prudent to have the capability to stop someone who is trying to injure or kill them or others. Anything less would be likely ineffective to their completing their "mission"/job, and as well may result in the "bad guy" winning the exchange.. Thus, that is why their tests on such rounds try to simulate actual situations that they may come across.

I have my own experiences that made me decide to use WCs as a self defense round in both 38 Spec. & 357 for less than 20-25 yds. Everyone has their own decision to make about such things. I am confident that one of the WCs hitting a person trying to hurt me or mine is not going to be happy, regardless of where it hits & is likely to discontinue their offensive nature.

Of course, YMMV... Do as ya like.

[tazman]

Given the option, I would prefer the bad guy or animal has two holes to bleed from rather than just the entry.
In and around my house, pass throughs are not really a problem. Nearest neighbor is quite a ways off.
In a crowd or public place, I will just have to be vigilant and know what is on the other side of my intended target.

[Char-Gar]

Given the option, I would prefer the bad guy or animal has two holes to bleed from rather than just the entry.
In and around my house, pass throughs are not really a problem. Nearest neighbor is quite a ways off.
In a crowd or public place, I will just have to be vigilant and know what is on the other side of my intended target.

That will require the cooperation of your intended target. Most times these things are come as you are events. Time will be of the essence.

[tazman]

That will require the cooperation of your intended target. Most times these things are come as you are events. Time will be of the essence.

Exactly. You do the best you can with what you have. All anyone can do.

[Forrest r]

Myself, I never liked the wc's for anything other than what they were designed for, putting holes in paper. In a perfect world they do fine 7yds away into anything soft. If the wc's hit anything hard they're done. Not a "hot" load by any means, a 148gr hbwc/830fps 25ft into a bowling pin.
[IMG][/IMG]
The recovered bullet
[IMG][/IMG]

In short bbl'd 38spl's it's hard to get the wc's fast enough to be effective. In short bbl'd 357's why bother? I have a 2 1/2" bbl'd 357 and have no problem loading 158gr hp's 1200fps (under max load). Any longer bbl'd firearm will have enough hp/bullet speed to be effective with a wide range of bullet designs. Wc's don't do well when they hit anything hard or when they hit anything at an angle. WC's and RN bullets tend to glance off of anything hard instead of biting into it.

I keep seeing the "FBI bare gelatin test/penetration test" quoted all the time. Why??? The FBI uses 6 different tests with gel. Even the hottest wc loads would have a hard time with the 6 tests let along a wc is not the best design for reloading/speed loaders.

Do some real world testing/head to head comparisons with wc's vs 9 or 10 different bullets. You'll find the wc's short comings will show up quickly.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Myself, I never liked the wc's for anything other than what they were designed for, putting holes in paper. In a perfect world they do fine 7yds away into anything soft. If the wc's hit anything hard they're done. Not a "hot" load by any means, a 148gr hbwc/830fps 25ft into a bowling pin.
[IMG][/IMG]
The recovered bullet
[IMG][/IMG]

In short bbl'd 38spl's it's hard to get the wc's fast enough to be effective. In short bbl'd 357's why bother? I have a 2 1/2" bbl'd 357 and have no problem loading 158gr hp's 1200fps (under max load). Any longer bbl'd firearm will have enough hp/bullet speed to be effective with a wide range of bullet designs. Wc's don't do well when they hit anything hard or when they hit anything at an angle. WC's and RN bullets tend to glance off of anything hard instead of biting into it.

I keep seeing the "FBI bare gelatin test/penetration test" quoted all the time. Why??? The FBI uses 6 different tests with gel. Even the hottest wc loads would have a hard time with the 6 tests let along a wc is not the best design for reloading/speed loaders.

Do some real world testing/head to head comparisons with wc's vs 9 or 10 different bullets. You'll find the wc's short comings will show up quickly.

Have you done any testing yourself?
I’ve read very good results with wadcutter a actually especially loaded a little hotter. You can see luck gunner results below or dig through the IWBA papers. Those articles were the developments of the FBI test as we know them and also some very good criticisms on some of the things the FBI did and still does that are irrrelivent to proper performance.

I’ve actually read articles about wadcutter and semi wadcutters cutting into a Target much better than a round nose and having way less of a chance of glancing off. Even Keith wrote about this when shooting his SWC designs into the heads of animals.

Your picture above kind of demonstrated this. You hit a hard surface that is radiused and the WC grabbed on tight. It’s hard to sell from the angle of the picture, maybe it was just a perfect square hit

I’m not trying to pick a fight or be disrespectful I’m just trying to pass on some good well written and highly respected test results.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobil...3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

[Char-Gar]

Myself, I never liked the wc's for anything other than what they were designed for, putting holes in paper. In a perfect world they do fine 7yds away into anything soft. If the wc's hit anything hard they're done. Not a "hot" load by any means, a 148gr hbwc/830fps 25ft into a bowling pin.
[IMG][/IMG]
The recovered bullet
[IMG][/IMG]

In short bbl'd 38spl's it's hard to get the wc's fast enough to be effective. In short bbl'd 357's why bother? I have a 2 1/2" bbl'd 357 and have no problem loading 158gr hp's 1200fps (under max load). Any longer bbl'd firearm will have enough hp/bullet speed to be effective with a wide range of bullet designs. Wc's don't do well when they hit anything hard or when they hit anything at an angle. WC's and RN bullets tend to glance off of anything hard instead of biting into it.

I keep seeing the "FBI bare gelatin test/penetration test" quoted all the time. Why??? The FBI uses 6 different tests with gel. Even the hottest wc loads would have a hard time with the 6 tests let along a wc is not the best design for reloading/speed loaders.

Do some real world testing/head to head comparisons with wc's vs 9 or 10 different bullets. You'll find the wc's short comings will show up quickly.

I don't think penetration in bowling pins is indicative of anything. I have hit them with 45s, 357 magnum and even a 44 magnum and none gave significant penetration.

[tazman]

I used to use an old, dried out, osage orange log(hedge) for a backstop for handgun shooting. The log was about 30 inches in diameter with a layer of soft white wood about 1 inch thick on the outside.
I shot light wadcutter, full power jacketed, and 44mag loads into that log.
Nothing penetrated that log beyond the white wood. Most bullets fell on the ground right next to the log. A few even bounced back a considerable distance.
Very few even expanded as much as the boolit in the picture jacketed included.
Using a hard substance for penetration testing can be deceiving. According to that log, nothing had good penetration.