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Thread: Black MZ Report

  1. #1
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Black MZ Report

    I was teaching at a camp for the last two days and we shot through two lbs of Black MZ. I've got a few observations to post but I'll have to wait until later. Meanwhile, if you have any comments I'd like to hear them. We used the powder in two inlines, two civil war muskets and two cap and ball pistols.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Looking forward to your post.
    Aim small, miss small!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Amazing this just got posted....I bought a can of it months ago and I just emerged from the reloading room having loaded a bunch of 38-40 cases for tomorrows Cowboy Action Shoot.......I'm told it sparks and booms much better than all the other substitutes.............We shall see!
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  4. #4
    Boolit Master MarkP's Avatar
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    Looking forward to your report as well.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I found a place nearby selling it for $9.99/lb. They have a bunch and no limit.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    OK, here's the story: I bought two cans of it at $28 a jug from The Gun Shop in Lancaster, ca. The firearms used were a Pedersoli Zuave, A Pedersoli Enfield two banded musket, a CVA in-line and a Knight entry level inline, a 1858 Remington .44 and a Ruger Old Army .45. All of the shooting was done over a two day stretch in the Lockwood Valley in Ventura CA. Elevation was about 4500 feet. Temps were 80 when we started at 8:30 AM on day one and peaked that same day at 95. Humidity was under 30% on day one. Day two the temps were lower and the humidity much higher at 80-90% as a weather system rolled in. Rain and lightening halted shooting at noon on day two. All of the guns were caught in the rain and soaked.

    Shooting began at 8:30 am each day. Each gun was fired 5 times in a 75 minute session. We did three sessions before noon and three sessions after. The rifles were loaded with 72 grains of powder. The two .58 cal rifles used standard Minnie balls and the two inlines used Lee's 50 cal Minnie. The pistols used 30 grains of powder, round balls and standard #11 caps. Ignition was 100% in all firearms. Oh, lube was NASSA lube for the rifles and my own concoction of bee's wax, lanolin, olive oil and red crayon (for looks) in the pistols.

    We had no leading and zero problems loading the guns with one exception. The Knight inline was loaded once with a Lee REAL. That took a mallet to properly seat the bullet and it produced an amazing and unexpected result. That 72 grain load made a sharp crack when fired with significantly enhanced recoil. My guess is that this load fit so tightly that it was more compressed than the others. This resulted in higher pressure and velocity...something the instruction on the Alliant web site discuss. The pistols were rather pedestrian. Kind of a dull boom rather than a sharp repot but ignition was instantaneous. Interestingly, I upped the charge to 40 grains in the ROA and substituted Lee's conical and boy-howdy did that step things up. I got a much sharper report and the hit on the gong was really hard. Not very scientific but anyone who has shot at gongs much knows when you smack one with authority and this was definitely one of those instances.

    I only wiped the bore with a plastic brush once just before lunch. No wiping was required the rest of the day. At day's end a ran a patch of Butch's Bore Shine down each rifle's barrel. On the morning of the second day I ran a dry patch down each bore and snapped a cap on each nipple. The only glitch came in the Enfield. I had to pull the nipple and clean it up a bit. All was great after that. As I said, shooting was halted at noon due to a pouring rain.

    I didn't get to cleaning the guns until today (12 hours later). We have been hot and very humid all week in Santa Clarita. There was light rust on the enfield band screws and some on the underside of the Zuave. No rust on either of the inlines and none on either of the pistols.

    So, does this stuff warrant its price? Yes, if you need to shoot a lot without cleaning. It does require some compression to really do its best and it has an annoying habit of clinging to the inside of your measure. Geez, I had to tap it out more than once. It was accurate though and it does not promote corrosion to the same degree as Pyrodex or BP. I'm going to use it again next year.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  7. #7
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    I just remembered this. After a number of shots the loading did require more effort but only for the first 4" of barrel. After than it was smooth with very little resistance. I have to say though that this was noticed just before noon each day after each gun had been fired about 10 to 15 times.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  8. #8
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    to make it pour better and not cling to the loader, mix 1 teaspoon graphite powder in each container of powder you buy. shake well.it will do the trick.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Used it on a dove hunting foray and had no trouble with killing doves or cleaning up afterwards. Used an original with twist steel Belgian 12 gauge barrels. No wiping between shots. Just used a 1-1/8 oz. measure full of Black MZ, one .125" nitro card, a 1-1/8 oz. measure of #7 shot, and a split (with my thumbnail) nitro card on top of the shot. Did alright. Checked off & on and found that the load in the unfired barrel appeared to have moved forward after 4 or 5 shots from the other barrel. Later, I had a load of shot trickle out onto my shoe. There was the pretty little thin over-shot card lying on the ground. So, I think I will stick with using a heavier over-shot card from now on. After using this combination in roll-crimped shells with no signs of the legendary doughnut shaped pattern, I don't see how it would be detrimental in muzzle stuffing guns. So, I learned a lot:
    #1=Black MZ lights easy and gets the job done on doves.
    #2=Eurasian doves are tough little devils and #7 shot makes sense.
    #3=Watch out for the other barrel load getting loose/stay away from thin over-shot card wads in muzzle loaders.
    #4=Remington caps work well!

    I guess I'll wait& see how well this Black MZ holds up over time. I hear that 777 loses potency over time so now will have to see if Black MZ acts the same way. The writer making the 777 report lives in Georgia and that humidity might have something to do with it. We will see if the dry climate in Southwestern Idaho makes a difference! That's about it for now. At $9.99 a pond at the Sportsman's warehouse here in town, it was worth a try!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master semtav's Avatar
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    That's great. I had a friend pick up 4 or 5 cans for me a month ago and haven't had a chance to even look at it. One of these days I'll run it thru the mill!! I got it for under 10 a can too, so somebody is making lots of money on you.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by semtav View Post
    That's great. I had a friend pick up 4 or 5 cans for me a month ago and haven't had a chance to even look at it. One of these days I'll run it thru the mill!! I got it for under 10 a can too, so somebody is making lots of money on you.
    I've seen it in other stores for $27.00 on up. From what I can figure, it burns about like 2F black as far as speed. If it holds up over time, it's some pretty good stuff. Better not talk it up too much or they'll raise the price!

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    Cool

    I would love your ideas on using this MZ I just bought from Sportsmans for 9.99 plus shipping and $20 hazmat. I have an 1858 Brass Frame Remmy 44 cal. I cant afford to replace this revolver every few months and i only shoot once in awhile. What amount of MZ would be SAFE but still having OOMPH that will not tweak or stretch or loosen my brass frame Remmy. I plan to use my lubed felt ontop powder. Ideas please.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Honestly, in those brass framed pistols, I would shoot 25 grains and be happy with it. This is a safe, low pressure load you can use all day.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  14. #14
    Boolit Master semtav's Avatar
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    Just an observation. MZ was extremely accurate in a 40-65 with just a touch of 4759 as a kicker. And Black mz is extremely corrosive. about 10 times more corrosive than black powder so clean well.

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by semtav View Post
    Just an observation. MZ was extremely accurate in a 40-65 with just a touch of 4759 as a kicker. And Black mz is extremely corrosive. about 10 times more corrosive than black powder so clean well.
    That's not been my experience. I've been shooting it in 3 different 45 Colt revolvers and I clean them with water that has a dollop of Simple Green in it. When I get them dry I wipe everything down with Ballistol. No corrosion in my experience.

    YMMV,
    Dave

    Dave

  16. #16
    Boolit Master rsrocket1's Avatar
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    I have not found BlackMZ to be corrosive at all. I clean my inlines with a patch and CLP and they clean up very easily. I bought a bunch of bottles at $9.99 at the local Sportsmans Warehouse too thinking it was on clearance but later finding out that it keeps coming back on sale at that price. I wouldn't pay any more than that however because of the terrible metering of the kitty litter granuals. I pre-weigh my charges for the day and keep them in sealed vials. If you are going to pay hazmat for just a pound or two see if you can find Blackhorn 209 instead. It works fine in an inline but not with a percussion or flintlock. If you are going to use it in a cartridge you might as well use a light charge of smokless powder because that's how much smoke is produced by BH209. BlackMZ however gives you all the smoke and flames of real black without the added cost and IMO less corrosive.

    I should load up some 38 special cases with BlackMZ and shoot them in my stainless steel Ruger Service Six just to see how much smoke I can produce.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsrocket1 View Post
    BlackMZ however gives you all the smoke and flames of real black without the added cost and IMO less corrosive.
    Just last week I fired 100 rounds of 45 Colt through a couple of my USFA single actions. Several times during my shooting session the breeze died down and firing a cylinder of my loads filled the shooting bay with smoke. Put a smile on my face.

    Dave

    PS: And, with about 50 rounds through each gun (probably more like 60/40) I encountered no stoppages due to fouling. The same guns will bind up (cylinder dragging) after ~10 rounds of black powder. Another reason to smile about discovering Black M-Z.

    PPS: I cleaned those two guns as described above and in checking them a day or so later there were no problems.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by omgb View Post
    OK, here's the story: I bought two cans of it at $28 a jug from The Gun Shop in Lancaster, ca. The firearms used were a Pedersoli Zuave, A Pedersoli Enfield two banded musket, a CVA in-line and a Knight entry level inline, a 1858 Remington .44 and a Ruger Old Army .45. All of the shooting was done over a two day stretch in the Lockwood Valley in Ventura CA. Elevation was about 4500 feet. Temps were 80 when we started at 8:30 AM on day one and peaked that same day at 95. Humidity was under 30% on day one. Day two the temps were lower and the humidity much higher at 80-90% as a weather system rolled in. Rain and lightening halted shooting at noon on day two. All of the guns were caught in the rain and soaked.

    Shooting began at 8:30 am each day. Each gun was fired 5 times in a 75 minute session. We did three sessions before noon and three sessions after. The rifles were loaded with 72 grains of powder. The two .58 cal rifles used standard Minnie balls and the two inlines used Lee's 50 cal Minnie. The pistols used 30 grains of powder, round balls and standard #11 caps. Ignition was 100% in all firearms. Oh, lube was NASSA lube for the rifles and my own concoction of bee's wax, lanolin, olive oil and red crayon (for looks) in the pistols.

    We had no leading and zero problems loading the guns with one exception. The Knight inline was loaded once with a Lee REAL. That took a mallet to properly seat the bullet and it produced an amazing and unexpected result. That 72 grain load made a sharp crack when fired with significantly enhanced recoil. My guess is that this load fit so tightly that it was more compressed than the others. This resulted in higher pressure and velocity...something the instruction on the Alliant web site discuss. The pistols were rather pedestrian. Kind of a dull boom rather than a sharp repot but ignition was instantaneous. Interestingly, I upped the charge to 40 grains in the ROA and substituted Lee's conical and boy-howdy did that step things up. I got a much sharper report and the hit on the gong was really hard. Not very scientific but anyone who has shot at gongs much knows when you smack one with authority and this was definitely one of those instances.

    I only wiped the bore with a plastic brush once just before lunch. No wiping was required the rest of the day. At day's end a ran a patch of Butch's Bore Shine down each rifle's barrel. On the morning of the second day I ran a dry patch down each bore and snapped a cap on each nipple. The only glitch came in the Enfield. I had to pull the nipple and clean it up a bit. All was great after that. As I said, shooting was halted at noon due to a pouring rain.

    I didn't get to cleaning the guns until today (12 hours later). We have been hot and very humid all week in Santa Clarita. There was light rust on the enfield band screws and some on the underside of the Zuave. No rust on either of the inlines and none on either of the pistols.

    So, does this stuff warrant its price? Yes, if you need to shoot a lot without cleaning. It does require some compression to really do its best and it has an annoying habit of clinging to the inside of your measure. Geez, I had to tap it out more than once. It was accurate though and it does not promote corrosion to the same degree as Pyrodex or BP. I'm going to use it again next year.
    Have you tried getting it shipped to your nearest Sportsman's Warehouse? At $9.99 a pound, it's worth a short drive. If you went together with a few other people, might be worth it. Getting ready for Winnemucca cast boolit shoot and have been loading it in all kinds of cartridges. Using Lee dippers, load it up to base of boolit. Am going to try out .32 long just for fun. It has shot nice groups out of my Marlin .32-20. .45 long Colt worked ok last year so I figure .454 Casull and .44 mag ought to be ok. Will find out this week. Good thing my wife is on vacation. She might be upset to see all the ammo projects going on in the kitchen and living room!

  19. #19
    Boolit Master semtav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    That's not been my experience. I've been shooting it in 3 different 45 Colt revolvers and I clean them with water that has a dollop of Simple Green in it. When I get them dry I wipe everything down with Ballistol. No corrosion in my experience.

    YMMV,
    Dave

    Dave
    Quote Originally Posted by rsrocket1 View Post
    I have not found BlackMZ to be corrosive at all. I clean my inlines with a patch and CLP and they clean up very easily.

    .

    Don't misunderstand my comment.

    I haven't had any corrosion in guns I've cleaned after shooting Black MZ and haven't done a comparison of leaving guns uncleaned to see which rusts the fastest, however, I left the three powders in three RCBS powder measures for a couple months and when I came back, Blackhorn lhad no corrosin in it, Black Powder had a very small amount of corrosion, and the one with black MZ was rusted beyond repair. So unfired Black MZ attracts moisture badly. Don't know about fired residue.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	242509 Hoping this works. Here is a .45 LC empty that I found in my back seat after a week. Surprised the heck out of me! I had no troubles like this with the ones I threw into the Walnut shell tumbler. So far, nothing like this on steel. I cleaned the brass mechanically (with a brush) and this junk came out of the case but took a dish scrubber to clean the stain off the outside. Will have to try to get the cases soaked in something while down in Winnemucca next weekend.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check