A new (to me) Spaniard! Star Super

[Doc1]

Saturday and Sunday found me skulking around the Hattiesburg, MS gun show - which is one of my favorites - looking for bargains and visiting with friends. Bargain hunting involves differing tactics. If you find something popular on a table, at a giveaway price, you'd better jump on it quickly. Make up your mind, pull the (mental) trigger and give the man his money 'cuz it probably won't still be there on your second trip around the show floor. But more often what happens is that you find something you want that's a little obscure and not likely to fly off the table quickly. Then you engage the seller in a dance that can last all day. You stop, chat, hem and haw, make polite noises and move on. An hour or so you check the table again to see if your treasure is still there, maybe pass the table and give the seller a friendly nod of acknowledgement and keep walking. A little later you stop at the table, chat again and make a cordial-but-lowball offer. If the gun, tool or part is still sitting there at the end of the day your bargaining position tends to get stronger and that's how I acquired my latest Spanish beauty. The seller started his day wanting $250 and after negotiations and a cash and trade deal I wound up into this pistol for $182.50.

What is it? It's an old Star Modelo Super in 9mm Largo! These are cool and interesting pistols. Though they are commonly referred to as 1911 clones, they share few similarities with the 1911 except for exterior appearances. If anything, as far as design goes, they are closer to the P35 Hi Power with its barrel cam instead of a barrel link and they also feature a very slick disassembly lever and loaded chamber indicator.

There's one thing about this pistol which really appeals to me and I'll be experimenting with it: The pistol can - or can with very slight mods - fire .38 Super. I've never owned a .38 Super, so the chance to get into a plinker at low cost appealed to me. You can find countless posts on the net devoted to the safety...or supposedly horrible dangers... of doing this, but I've known lots of folks who've done this over the years in complete safety and if you'd like to read on I'll explain what I believe to be the reasons for this.

First, the cartridge dimensions are extremely close. This, while important, isn't the end of the story. We (obviously) have to consider chamber pressures. The old 9mm Largo's chamber pressure is 33,000 PSI. The .38 Super comes in at 36,500 PSI. Is the Super a hotter round? Of course, but let's compare it to the venerable .38 Special as opposed to the .38 Special +P. There you are looking at a difference between 17,000 PSI and 20,000 PSI. On a percentage basis, the difference between .38 Special and +P is significantly greater than the difference between 9mm Largo and .38 Super. Now I am not suggesting that all 9mm Largo handguns are candidates for .38 Super use, but different weapon designs have different strengths. As an example, the old Astra 400s were chambered in 9mm Largo, but they, while finely made pistols, are a simple delayed blowback design and are not considered to be overly strong. The Star Largo is a solid hunk of quality steel based on the much stronger Browning locking breech design. Lastly, I'm a reloader and a conservative one. I will work up any .38 Super loads very carefully and take baby steps in the process, examining carefully for pressure signs and any difficulties in the pistol. Honestly, I anticipate none and as I've said, over the decades I've known several people who used the Modelo Super as .38 Super pistols without the slightest trouble. Oh, FWIW this won't be strictly for .38 Super; I just ordered a hundred Starline 9mm Largo cases too.

For me, finally getting a sub-$200 .38 Super-capable pistol is just plain fun!

Best regards
Doc

[bouncer50]

I have a couple of Stars Supers and Two Astra 400 i reload for them. Slug your bores on yours mine run between 356- to 359. Mine i reload to 38 ACP pressure to save wear and possible damage hard to find parts for them since Star and Astra closed down years back.

[Doc1]

Bouncer, I like Spanish pistols. I have other Stars and an Astra 43/600 ((mm Parabellum). Both the 400 and 600 are blowback pistols and can't take the pressures that a locking breech can. On your 400 you are correct to keep pressures down to .38 acp levels.

Best regards
Doc

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Congratulations on the purchase. I've got a pair of the 9mm Largo Super As. I have also read article after article and post after post about the safety and advisability of shooting the .38 Super in the Largo pistol. Frankly, I wouldn't put too much faith in the percentage example line of thinking in your post about the difference in the ..38 vs. .38+P and the Largo vs. .38 Super. You're talking apples and oranges. One is lower pressure to start with and fired in a revolver, and the other is higher pressure and used in a semi-auto. I think that rationale can get you into trouble. Setting that aside, after (like you) having studied into it a great deal I've concluded that on the Astra 400 pistols which are stamped 9mm/.38 they were talking about .38 ACP, not .38 Super. On the other hand, the Star Super A continued in manufacture long after the Astra series and I've heard it argued that if they are stamped 9mm/.38 it refers to the .38 Super. Unfortunately, since they're all out of business we can't get the definitive answer "from the horse's mouth" and have to use common sense. If I wanted to shoot .38 Super in the Star Super A model I'd get one of the later commercial models, not one of the earlier ones made for the military for my experiment. But, I do think that your plan to load the .38 Super "very carefully and take baby steps" is the way to go if one is going to do this, but having achieved factory .38 Super loads in the Largo pistol I hope you don't then decide to push the envelope on the .38 Super by loading it hotter, because I believe disaster awaits. I think the Largo is a pretty good cartridge as-is, and would buy a pistol originally chambered for the .38 Super if that was what I wanted to shoot. Your new pistol was made for the Largo, and a diet of .38 Supers may beat it to death. I've never seen any Shock-Buffs made for the Star pistols. You can get a heavier recoil spring from Wolff. No offense intended here, just carrying on a conversation.

[Doc1]

Herr Gebirgsjager, Thank you for your kind and thoughtful input and no, no offense is taken at all. One thing I appreciate about this board is the gentlemanly conduct and civility displayed by its members. In researching this issue I have come across similar threads on other boards (which shall go un-named) where the discussion quickly devolved into insult swapping and counter-productive invective.

This pistol will not be a carry piece or see heavy duty; it's really just going to be an interesting project. While I stated that I have a fondness for Spanish pistols and own several, my carry weapons are 1911s and Ruger .357 revolvers. That said, I have long believed that the (quality) Spanish gunsmiths' art is generally under-appreciated in the US. Yes, the Spaniards produced some cheap pistols (as did the US and Germany), but their quality firearms tend to be exceptionally well designed and executed.

Instructive in this regard is another love of mine: the venerable M98 Mauser action. The Spanish M43 version of the K98 is a superb rifle, yet many US shooters look at it with suspicion. This strikes me as amazing because the M43 was produced in a country at peace - Spain - by arsenals with very high standards. Many of these same shooters are willing to unhesitatingly place their faith in any old example of a German K98! The German M98s are generally of high quality, but many of their 98s were produced by slave labor, using suspect materials, during wartime shortages and using "last ditch" production methods. Still, the typical American mindset is "German, good...Spanish, suspect!" It's ridiculous. FWIW, my varied experience with Stars, Llamas and Astras over the decades has been very good, with Llamas generally showing the most inconsistent QC.

My reference to the .38 Special /.38 +P example was only to show that there was a greater percentage difference in pressure between these commonly-used cartridges than between the 9mm Largo and the Super. Similarly, there is a greater pressure difference percentage between SAAMI's maximum .308 Win. pressures and 7.62 NATO pressure yet we know - advisable or not - that these are commonly used interchangeably. Few if any kabooms are documented. My point is not to endorse unsafe practices, but to suggest that careful handloading and a judicious approach should allow me to proceed with this fun little project in safety. Readers should remember that the 9mm Parabellum is a 35,000 PSI cartridge and yet we commonly see Hi Points, Jennings and other inexpensive Nines digest these with no problems. People don't give it a second thought! If I'm going to venture into the 35,000 PSI neighborhood, I think I'll feel a lot more comfortable behind the Old World craftsmanship of my Star than I would behind a Jennings! LOL! I'm not exactly breaking fresh ground here. I have had several friends who did exactly what I propose with their Star Supers for years without the slightest problem. We really are talking about a fairly modest increase in pressure. Oh, a last point; two of my Spanish 9mm plinking guns, an Astra M43/600 and a Star BM digest a lot of 9mm reloads, factory ammo and surplus ammo without complaint.

Again, thank you for your input and I'll be happy to keep this thread updated if folks are interested.

Best regards
Doc

[Sax.45]

Congrats on your new old Star. I do the same as you at shows, Showing some respect to the seller often pays off. I had times after the second or third pass by the table, the seller would say to ME, If I still wanted the gun, he would take my offer.

Sax.

[bouncer50]

One thing i do when i buy a old automatic pistol is to change the recoil spring. Wolff sell a lot of spring kits at good prices. You also should find a Destroyer carbine in 9mm largo a lot of fun to shoot i have two of them.

[jrap]

While we're talking about reloading for this pistol how about we get some pictures?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Nice chatting with you, Doc1. When it comes to a fondness for Spanish pistolas we were doubtless cast from the same mold. Over the years I've acquired a couple of dozen Astras, Stars, and Llamas and all are high quality. I've always been a 1911 fan, but as age continues to creep up on me I've found the Star Model B 9x19mm to be more to my liking. Slightly thinner grip and a little less recoil, and like they say, "It ain't your grandpa's 9mm anymore." Since, as originally conceived, the 9mm Largo was a bit more powerful than the Luger cartridge it can also take advantage of the newer expanding bullet designs and be very useful. I've also got a M-43 rifle and have no complaints. Keep us posted on your project.

[376Steyr]

Don't know about this particular model, but if I recall correctly some of the Star autos didn't have "floating" firing pins like the Colt 1911 does. On a 1911, with the hammer down, the firing pin doesn't protrude into the chamber. On some Stars, with the hammer down, the firing pin is pressing up against the primer, just waiting for a good whack on the hammer to set it off ala the old Colt Single Action Army. This is not a problem with a paper target only gun, that is either empty or firing, but would be worrisome if you ever wanted to put your Star into Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber.)
This is easy enough to check: Rack the action open, press the rear of the firing pin until it is flush with the firing pin stop, look at the breech face and see if the firing pin is protruding. If it is, take suitable precautions.

[nagantguy]

Good score, I am a dickerer and dealer at heart as well might take two trips to a table or 5 and sometimes a return on Sunday but I love to barter......I know a gent the best pistol shot and one heck of a smith whom has done the conversion you speak of, I shoot the pistol all the time, with moderate loads it should work fine. I also love Spanish pistolas, have several m&p S&W copies done for various military/ Polica most are very good quality revolvers and can shoot!

[rintinglen]

Here's mine--I'd not go the 38 Super route unless you respring the gun and maybe put in shok buffs.

[Harry O]

I have a couple of the Star Autos, one in 9mm Largo and one in 9mm Luger. Also an Astra 400 in 9mm Largo. All are well made guns. The Star in 9mm Luger is more accurate than most of my newer 9mm's even though the barrel is nothing to brag about. One of the first guns I ever shot in the 1960's was an Astra. It belonged to my Uncle. I found out much later that it was chambered in 9mm Largo, but he never used anything other than 9mm Luger in it. He still has it.

The first one I bought was a Star in 9mm Largo. I handloaded .38 Super brass for it using loading data from the 9mm Luger. It worked well. Later on I found some 9x23 brass. It worked in my Astra, but not in the Star. The chamber of the Star was tighter. After Starline started making 9mm Largo brass, I bought a bunch and have never looked back. I also now use a set of dies from RCBS that is labeled 9mm Luger/9x21/9x23. It works on both the Largo and Luger.

The Star in 9mm Luger was the most recently bought, maybe 10 years ago. I saw it on a gunshow table at a very reasonable price (even counting the frosted barrel against it) and bought it to go with my Largo Star. I have to look at them VERY carefully to make sure I have the right one (to match the cartridges) before I go shooting.

[Doc1]

A tiny update: The 9mm Largo brass I ordered hasn't arrived yet, but I seemed to recall having a single round of .38 Super in my can of miscellaneous ammunition. That's my can of oddball caliber ammo I've picked up over the years and put back against a time of possible need. I started digging through the can and sure enough, I found that single round of .38 Super. I had no intention of shooting it; I just wanted to see if it would cycle in the pistol since I've heard stories that some Star Supers will chamber .38 Super without modification and others won't.

Manually cycling the pistol showed that the .38 Super round fed and chambered perfectly and even operated the loaded chamber indicator correctly. So far things are looking good!

Best regards
Doc

[azrednek]

I can't recall if it was Star, LLama or possibly another Spanish firearm manufacture. I watched a news report on TV that showed the Spanish govt bought and destroyed the spare parts after the company went broke.

The news report said a US company but didn't mention the name. Made an offer not only for the spare parts but also for the tooling. The Spanish bankruptcy judge or official in charge refused the offer. Mentioning something about a United Nations decree or program then the news report showed the twisted barrel revolver in front of the UN building.

A few years ago friend of mine paid well over a hundred for an extractor for an older Star 9MM. The part was not available and he had to have a gunsmith make it from bar stock. From what my friend has told me the replacement extractor is not very reliable.

About 1972 or 73 for a short time I had a Star pistol that was chambered for and marked on the slide 38 Auto or 9MM (Largo I believe) Money was tight for me back then after the birth of twins. I sold it in a desperate moment for only $45.00. Guy I sold it to ruined it by shooting 38 Super but I can't recall what part of it broke or was destroyed.

[Doc1]

FIRST FIRING: My first batch of 9mm Largo brass arrived in the mail, so I researched 9mm Largo load data from various internet sources, as well as .38 Super data from both the Lyman 48th Edition and the Speer #11 manual. Under a 115 gr. FMJ, the Speer manual gave a range of 6.7 grains to 7.4 grains of Unique (for .38 Super) and Lyman suggested 5.4 to 6.9 grains for the same bullet. I couldn't find any 9mm Largo data for Unique, but felt that 6 grains would be a safe and conservative loading. I loaded this over Federal No. 100 small pistol primers. The 115 FMJ bullets came from a jug of various commercial and surplus ammo that had been flooded in Hurricane Katrina and discarded by a gun shop. Years ago I'd spent a lot of time pulling these bullets, cleaning them and tumbling them. I still have a small jug of them left.

I wasn't testing for accuracy, but in minute-of-dirt-clod terms my first load seemed OK. I was much more interested in pressure signs and subjective felt recoil. The old Star behaved perfectly through a couple of magazines and the 6 grain Unique load, while not a "powder puff" seemed to be fairly mild. There were absolutely no bad pressure signs on the brass or primers (and I didn't expect to find any at these levels).

Best regards
Doc

[TXGunNut]

Good score! A few decades ago an older gent I know carried a Star PD (IIRC) in his inside sportcoat pocket for his "winter" gun. He carried a Colt Detective Special in the summer time. This was long before CHL's were even seriously considered in TX but also a time when gentlemen were often armed and no one seemed to mind.
It seemed to be a well-made gun and very light for the cartridge.

[lar45]

I have a Star Modelo Super in 9mm Largo that I bought about 20 years ago. One of the first things that I noticed is that the barrel of mine slugged to .358". And I really liked the quick take down lever.
Mine would not chamber 38 Supers becaue of the semi-rim of the super. So I took a small file and cut a small step in the hood of the barrel until a 38 super case would just fit flush with the back of the barrel. The feed lips on my magazine needed to be tweaked open just a little bit to allow for reliable feeding.
I pulled a bullet from some surplus Largo ammo and it weighed 130 grains. I found some 38 super ammo with 130gn bullets also to compare them.
I chroned the factory Largo ammo and it came in only about 50fps slower than the factory 38 Super. I don't recall the exact velocities. A 50fps difference seemed fairly minor so I decided to go ahead and try some more Supers in it.
It fed and fired both rounds even mixed in the same magazine. Just for fun, I added some 9mm Luger ammo mixed in with the other two. It fed, fired and ejected everything without any problems. I then loaded a couple rounds of 380. It would feed and fire them, but the 380 ammo would only move the slide back enough to get the hammer to go to it's half cock position.
Before everybody starts jumping up and down about abusing the extractor with the shorter cases, I know that it's just the extractor holding the case in place during fireing. I did not shoot piles of 9mm and 380, I just wanted to see if it could be done.
Now back to the feasability of fireing 38 Super in it... I think the suggestion of getting a new Wolf Spring to fit it is a great idea. I replaced mine about 15 years ago. Here is a link to the springs. Be sure and measure the OD of your spring to get the correct one.
https://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto...1/mID61/dID276

My main carry piece is a Star PD, it's a great little gun that has never malfunctioned.
I would really love to find one of their Model P Supers in 45 acp. If anyone ever comes across one, I would appreciate a PM with the details.

and that's my 2 cents on the subject.

[Texantothecore]

Good score! A few decades ago an older gent I know carried a Star PD (IIRC) in his inside sportcoat pocket for his "winter" gun. He carried a Colt Detective Special in the summer time. This was long before CHL's were even seriously considered in TX but also a time when gentlemen were often armed and no one seemed to mind.
It seemed to be a well-made gun and very light for the cartridge.

I have a Star PD and it a very nice. I wish the company was still around, they made excellent guns.

[Walkingwolf]

The Star Super A is the exact same gun as the Star Super B, except for the the depth of the bore. Both guns should handle standard 9X19 pressures without a problem. 38 super is the same pressure as 9X19, but I would not shoot 38 super in mine. 38 super case is a straight walled case, 9mm Largo is a tapered case like the 9X19. I use strictly largo cases in mine, load to midrange 38 super loads, I get around 1100 fps depending on the powder.