How many grains of BP in a 45-70 case?

[Don McDowell]

and the popular spg started out as a home brew

That's true, and the version out today is the final mixture of a lot of testing, back in the old days when the knowledge available about bpcr wasn't there like it is now, and then when that final mixture came out commercially 20 some years ago, there's been quite a large number of national championship won with it... so make things easy when starting out buy something with a proven track record, then start experimenting with variations on some of the old recipes.

[KenH]

Folks, I do appreciate all the sharing of knowledge on this site, and do understand the ease of buying a commercial lube.... BUT - from all reading, Emmet's lube seems about as good as it gets, and that's so easy to mix up at home with the stuff (beeswax, crisco, canola/olive oil) I've got on hand. I think I like the idea of adding lanolin to the mix. Ordering $10 of lube is easy, but that $10 is actually $20+ by the time it's shipped.

If all these rifles will do is go "bang" hitting a 5 gallon bucket I'm going to be VERY disappointed - I hope to get 2 (3?) inches MOA from the old guns. I really really hope for 1" MOA from the new 45-70 barrel that's ordered for a Rolling Block action. I do ALL my testing with bench rest and scope - That's the ONLY way I can really test a rifle or load. Well, the trapdoor doesn't have a scope, it has a holographic sight mounted on barrel for the long eye relief required. While I'd LOVE to shoot iron sights, my eyes just don't see well enough - things are a blur. Glasses to focus on sight, and target is a big blur. I've not managed to get both clear at same time.

Thank ya'll again for sharing - I'm sure learning a LOTS about BPCR. Never realized it was so involved. BUT - they keep telling us old folks to work crossword puzzles to keep the mind working.... me, I'd rather do something useful like learn new skills - BPCR, gunsmithing, knifemaking, computer programming.... just too many fun things to do rather than waste my time on crossword puzzles!

Ken H>

[rfd]

ken h -

bpcr, target and its ilk can be whatever you like depending on yer scope of interest, time and money. imho, some of the stuff surrounding all of this is pure cork sniffing, and some is pretty much gospel if the pursuit of consist accuracy is the primary goal. there are lots of good bullet lubes to choose - both commercial and home brew - and lots of really good shooters are using flavors of one or the other, or both. there is enuf of concern just starting out in this game that it's in the best interests of the newbie to begin with proven stuff .... like the choice of bullet lube, fer instance.

good luck ken, and do enjoy the journey!

[Keith Andersen]

I don't know where this thing started, don't use petroleum products with black powder. Most of my additives in my black powder lube is petroleum based. my mix that I have for a long time is a mix of 60% petroleum jelly B wax if I have, it if not I use paraffin and thin it with more pet, jelly. I don't get the tar posters talk about.
I don't buy the expensive lubes or anything else that I can make.

[KenH]

A couple of questions here on the 45-70 loads. I shot a few 65 gain Fg behind a 340 grain bullet and got a LOTS more fouling than I'd been getting with FFg. I say more, because when I pushed warm soapy water wetted patches down the bore, it took more push thru to get the patches to come out clean than with the Fg powder. Is this normal?

Also, would a 400 (or 450) grain bullet work better with Fg powder than the 340 grain? While I'm fully aware for 500+ yds shooting a longer bullet (500+ grains) is usually better, how about for 100 yds? Will there be much difference at 100 yds between 340 grain vs 400 grain vs 500 grain bullet?

Thanks again for all the help,

Ken H>

[country gent]

You didnt say what powder your using so..... Experiment with powder compression some, Swiss seems to like no airspace and lighter compression. Old ensford seems to be mid or medium compression levels. GOEX some are running up to .300 compression on. Finding the right level of compression for your cases, rifle, bullet combimation will show lowered levels of fouling. A good lube also helps control fouling. A blow tube or wiping rod may be needed also. Was it heavier fouling or fouling tha had dried out or hardened due to lube or control issues? Start with a powder charge to give 1/16" compression and work up in 1-2grn increments to the sweet spot. Compress with a die rather than the bullet as these soft slugs will deform when compressing powder charges. A simple way is to make a dummy bullet from brass steel aluminum or even close grained hard wood ( seal and finish with super glue). You want this dummy bullet to slide freely into a sized case mouth. So probably around .450-.455 dia. In use drop powder charge into case, seat a wad, set bullet into case mouth and compress with seater die. Hand seat bullet if possible onto wad.

[rfd]

for me, one of the beauties of black powder cartridges is using fire formed cases and thumb seated bullets. i do need a press for powder compression, and only for new brass that needs "fire forming" straight neck expansion.

[KenH]

Ooops - you're right, the type of powder is pretty important. It's GOEX powder that's all I've got, Fg, FFg, and FFFg for the pistol. This was with 65 grains Fg and compression was only perhaps 0.1" using a brass rod ID of brass as tool to compress with 1 milk carton wad between powder and bullet base. This was shot in the Trapdoor.

The fouling didn't seem hard at all using the 340 grain GG bullet with the Emmert's lube (50% beeswax, 40% crisco, 10% canola oil) so maybe it's working.

I think I covered all the questions.

Would anyone care to comment on the question about "Will there be much difference at 100 yds between 340 grain vs 400 grain vs 500 grain bullet?" Here I'm assuming the proper powder, wad, compression, etc so each bullet will function at best.

Ken H>

[Grapeshot]

I will tell you what I did when loading for my .45/70 Military Rifles. I took a WEIGHED 70 grain charge of Goex 2Fg and poured it down a 36 inch drop tube into a Winchester case. I then compressed the powder with a compression die deep enough to seat a Lyman 457125 500 grain RN boolit. I then taper crimped the case and was ready to shoot it. I also used a Winchester Magnum Large Rifle Primer to touch off the powder charge.

This worked well for me. YMMV.

[KenH]

I'll bet 70 grains of FFg with a 500 grain bullet packs a whump on both ends

Do you use a wad between powder and bullet base? What about grease cookie? What lube do you use?

Ken

[Lumpy grits]

I use run 3F Goex in both my .45-70 and .45-90.
Now I'm using Old "E" 2f and run the same speed with even less fouling.
LG

[Grapeshot]

I'll bet 70 grains of FFg with a 500 grain bullet packs a whump on both ends

Do you use a wad between powder and bullet base? What about grease cookie? What lube do you use?

Ken

I used the data and instructions found in Pat Wolf's book on the .45-70. No wad used, no Grease Cookie, the lube I used was my blend of Bees Wax, Vegetable Oil, and Candle Wax. I also used SPG but that was expensive. I did use a blow tube to help keep the fouling soft.

The recoil was tolerable considering the weight of the Rifle, an 1873 Trapdoor Springfield.

[Lumpy grits]

I'll bet 70 grains of FFg with a 500 grain bullet packs a whump on both ends

Do you use a wad between powder and bullet base? What about grease cookie? What lube do you use?

Ken

Not bad-Like a 12ga with a trap load.
LG

[KenH]

LG, Grapeshot - I'll bet both of ya'll have LOTS more experience with BP than I have. A question if you please, loading a 45-70 (as an example) with 70 grains pushing a 500 grain bullet - how much difference in recoil is felt with same rifle between Fg, FFg, and FFFg? My "thinking" would think the slower Fg would be slightly less recoil?

Ken

[Lumpy grits]

LG, Grapeshot - I'll bet both of ya'll have LOTS more experience with BP than I have. A question if you please, loading a 45-70 (as an example) with 70 grains pushing a 500 grain bullet - how much difference in recoil is felt with same rifle between Fg, FFg, and FFFg? My "thinking" would think the slower Fg would be slightly less recoil?

Ken

You are correct here-The difference is minor.
BUT, BP recoil is NOT the 'fast-slap' like you get with smokeless. It's a firm 'push'.
I went to 3F because the target said it was the 'rite' choice, and the reduced fouling and more uniform burn.
The problem is it will be hard for you to get 70gn by weight of real BP in any of today's .45-70 cases with grease grove bullets. You'll be doing good to get 65gn in.
With rifle loads and the amount of compression need'd dictates the use of a compression die-Do not attempt to do this with the bullet!
LG

[StrawHat]

...The problem is it will be hard for you to get 70gn by weight of real BP in any of today's .45-70 cases with grease grove bullets. You'll be doing good to get 65gn in ... LG...

See post #20, #22, #27.

Kevin

[rfd]

... The problem is it will be hard for you to get 70gn by weight of real BP in any of today's .45-70 cases with grease grove bullets. You'll be doing good to get 65gn in. ...

well, not really, sir. lots depends on many factors such as case volume, bullet shape/ogive/max oal, powder granularity, drop tube compaction, powder/wad compression, barrel chamber dimensions and probably other factors. i have no problem loading up to 67 grains (by weight) of swiss 1-1/2f with only .030 compression under 3 wads (.025, .002, .002) and a baco 459525m3 greaser. and that's with a lower volume starline case, and not to max oal before rifling contact. could do more with winchester brass. but the weight/amount of bp isn't what matters most, and my current best loads are at 65.2 grains of swiss 1-1/2f.

[Lumpy grits]

It depends more on the type of bullet your using like paper-patch or grease groove.
Plus-70gns of Goex has more volume than 70gns of 'Old E.
I have never load'd Swiss BP(can't afford it).
LG

[KenH]

Since FFg burns cleaner than Fg, does FFFg burn cleaner than FFg? Since FFFg is a finer grain, this is faster burning than the larger grains? Does this create higher chamber pressure than Fg? Higher FPS muzzle velocity?

As I said in post #33 I'm only using Geox powder and getting around 70 grains of Fg & FFg in a starline case and 75-76 grains of Fg - all in the same case, just pouring thru a funnel - no drop tube.

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge 'n experience.

Ken H>

[Lumpy grits]

Yes-3F Goex will burn 'cleaner'.
It also gave me much better groups in both my '70 and '90.
LG