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Thread: How many grains of BP in a 45-70 case?

  1. #41
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    using drop tubed swiss 1-1/2f, i can easily get in 65.2 grains under .030" worth of wads, w/.030" compression, under a baco 459525m3 bullet. that's the load i've been using for the last coupla months.


  2. #42
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    Col, Tarheel, RFD - thanks for the info. Sounds like with a GG'd (Grease grooved?) bullet there is not any real "need" for a grease cookie? Just powder, good wad, then lubed bullet. What size are your bullets? My trapdoor is a .452" bore with a .458 groove diameter. I'm planning to play around some with PP'd bullets later, but for now perhaps easiest is to use GG bullets. I'm MUCH more familiar with GG with .357 pistol and 30-30 casting 'n shooting from many years ago.

    I've ordered an E.R. Shaw barrel in 45-70 with a 1-22 to install on a Rolling Block action, but that's still 3 months or so before delivery.

    What do you think of the following 3 bullets - I know they are cheap Lee molds... Well, Diamond Jim I've never been.

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GXDPPC/ Lee Precision 459-500-3R)

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005KW72RW/ (Lee Precision SC 459-405)

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GXFC6M/ (Lee Precision C457-500-F)

    Thanks to all for the help and guidance,

    Ken H>

  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    That 500 3R has a lot of trouble staying stable in windy conditions, and doesn't do real well past about 300 yds in good conditions.
    With the 1 -22 twist your best bet is going to be the government bullet at the best, bullets at 450 grs or more might have a good deal of trouble stablilizing from that slow twist.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  4. #44
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    Kenh,A Blow Tube made from an old Case and some Rubber or Plastic Tube is a handy tool to keep the fouling soft.Breath down the Barrel after every shot and wipe out every five.it works for me.The Soap content in the lube reacts to the moisture and stops the residue from baking hard.

  5. #45
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    +1 to what don just posted.

    lots will depend on the primary use you have in mind for yer .45-70 rifle, then get the proper/best hardware and function to match.

    you'd do MUCH better with a 1:18 barrel for 500+ grain bullets, and you will need that weight for any consistently accurate distance shooting.

    imho, lee's .45-70 bullets are fine for hunting and plinking, but not for long range target/bpcr. if real accuracy well beyond 100 yards is yer goal, don't skimp on a good bullet design and mould, it'll just be a waste of money. been there, done that.

    there are two basic camps for bpcr black powder fouling control - blow tube or wipe. learn about each, hopefully try each, then decide what's best for yer rifle and you. both methods are used by top shooters, not one is better than the other ... but again, there can be dependencies for on how yer gonna be using yer rifle that might dictate which fouling control will work best, for you.

  6. #46
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    Thanks for comments folks - the twist rate in the E.R. Shaw barrel was a choice of only 1-14 or 1-22. In discussion with the fellow there, it seemed 1-22 would be better for cast bullets, so that was my selection. I'm sure 99.9% of shooting (maybe 100%) will certainly be less than 300 yds - with 99% being 100 yds (or less). I do plan to mount a scope so my old eyes can see to shoot a bit.

    A buddy left a mold here for me to use, it's the Lee 457-340-F mold. As that's only 340 grain, comments on how well it would shoot to only 100 yds?

    For bullets with grease grooves I've read the diameter should be groove diameter - is that correct?

    Thanks again to all for help 'n suggestions.

    Ken H>



  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Groove diameter to .002 over is where greasers thrive.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #48
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    Thanks Don - that's got me going. Now to mix up some BP lube..... maybe beeswax and crisco..... or canola oil..... or "virgin" olive oil.

  9. #49
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    A pretty good lube is 50% beeswax 40% crisco and 10% canola oil ( olive oil can also be used) I drop the oil to 5% and add 5% anhydrous lanolin to mine. works well and is easy to make. Melt blend ingrediants in a double boiler. Wax crisco and oil add and blend lanolin when others are liquified. Stir good and let cool

  10. #50
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    Yep, that's pretty much what I'm looking to try, but I don't have the lanolin on hand right now. I'll start with the beeswax, crisco, and canola oil - those I've got on hand. Just a small batch to try. This BP stuff is sorta addicting!!!

    Ken H>

  11. #51
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenH View Post
    Thanks Don - that's got me going. Now to mix up some BP lube..... maybe beeswax and crisco..... or canola oil..... or "virgin" olive oil.
    Save yourself a whole bunch of trouble and headache, just purchase any of the proven blackpower cartridge lubes. Bullshops NASA, Big Sky Components BSC, or SPG. All are well tested. You'll have enough other things to worry about other than whether or not your lube is working.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  12. #52
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    Theres alot to be said for Dons advice, purchase a good well known black Powder rated lube first. Use it for awhile and gets the loads working and experience then start the homemade lubes. Youll have a measure to judge your results against then. I have pot of the above mix here ( about 5 lbs) that I use, but theres also several blocks of spg here also.

  13. #53
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    Well Don - "IF" I were smart that's exactly what I'd do.... and most likely will still do. BUT - I like fooling with stuff, seems like I learn better by doing it from scratch many times..... and I just like the DIY stuff.

    This forum has such a great deal of good info it's too easy for me to spend too many hrs/day just reading rather than doing {g}

    Ken H>

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    Save yourself a whole bunch of trouble and headache, just purchase any of the proven blackpower cartridge lubes. Bullshops NASA, Big Sky Components BSC, or SPG. All are well tested. You'll have enough other things to worry about other than whether or not your lube is working.
    by KenH "IF" I were smart that's exactly what I'd do.... and most likely will still do. BUT - I like fooling with stuff, seems like I learn better by doing it from scratch many times..... and I just like the DIY stuff.
    Many, if not most of us like to "adjust" our loads. It is what makes us crazy. But, you need a base line to start so you know what to expect. And then, change only one variable at a time. Otherwise, you will not know what caused the change to occur.

    I probably made up 50 different lubes and messed with a bunch of different options before I settled on a load.

    Also, before you get real invested in alchemy, decide what you want from your rifle and loads. Rifles and loads for 1000 yard shooting are different than rifles and loads for shooting at 5 gallon pails at 100 yards. Both are a lot of fun but one is a lot easier to work up a load.

    Kevin
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  15. #55
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    I've only shot 1,000 yds one time and that was with smokeless powder and a rifle setup for 1,000 yd shooting. It would be something I'd like more of. I'm MUCH more familiar with 100 yd shooting, and looking for well less than 1 MOA...... 40 years ago that took some work with rifle and loads both to get "one hole groups" at 100 yds. I had cast bullets shooting 1 MOA, and match jackets less than 1/2 MOA. By far the best was with a 25-06 I'd built up myself using a barreled action. Perhaps my proudest was with a 6mm I built for my wife using a M93 action that had been special heat treated to make it suitable for full 6mm loads. I purchased a barrel, installed barrel to action myself, set headspace, built a stock - and at 80 yds she shot a 5 shot one hole group using cast bullets. She kept that target displayed on the wall for a while. Sad to say we sold the rifle to finance a trip to Europe to bum around for a couple of months.

    Boy, those days were a LONG time ago and shooting 'n casting bullets has changed LOTS since those days!

    With this BPCR I can get right at 50 yds in my back yard to work up a load, then a trip "up home" to the farm to get 100, or maybe even 200 yds to check load. I'll have a scope mounted so I can tell just what the rifle/load will do. I know that type shooting is nothing compared to the 1,000 yds ya'll shoot - to say I'm impressed with shooting that distance with old BP guns is an understatement!

    Ken h>
    Last edited by KenH; 10-17-2015 at 11:12 AM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    Save yourself a whole bunch of trouble and headache, just purchase any of the proven blackpower cartridge lubes. Bullshops NASA, Big Sky Components BSC, or SPG. All are well tested. You'll have enough other things to worry about other than whether or not your lube is working.
    Good advice.

  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    I guess I've never quite got this mindset of making slopbucket loads for a bpcr. I never settled for that with a smokeless rifle, and I don't know anybody else that didn't strive to get the best loads they could possibly find for their modern centerfire rifle. So I am absolutely puzzled by folks that think it's ok to just dump a scoop full of some sort of black powder in a case, grease the bullet up with what ever is handy and go make the thing go bang..
    It takes so very little effort to make quality blackpowder cartridge loads, and then if you're busting a bucket at 100 yds and can call your shots onto the label on the bucket or the x ring on a 1000 yd target, you're good to go...
    Buying a quality commercial lube, that has been tested and proven is such an inexpensive thing to do, and takes the variable of a miserable mess for a lube causing leading in your gun, and all the other stuff that can happen. Think about it folks, a pound of commercial lube will cost around 20$, most good bpcr bullets will take 2 maybe 3 grs of lube, so you're looking at something close to 1000 + rounds loaded from that pound of lube.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  18. #58
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    there are lotsa proven bpcr bullet lubes, both commercial and otherwise, and the popular spg started out as a home brew. one of the best diy lubes is still "gatofeo lube" (aka "ugly cat lube", from its creator) that cast boolits member nobade turned me on to awhile back. it's 1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works), 1 part paraffin caning wax (gulf wax), 1/2 part pure beeswax (found lotsa places) ... all by weight and mixed double boiler style. as is, this is a soft lube and upping the weight of beeswax can harden it for warm/hot weather.

  19. #59
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    Stay away from petroleum based products (vaseline & paraffin wax) when making your own lube. They add to the fouling.

    Equal parts of clean beeswax, Criso (vegetable) shorting and peanut oil, works very well, all natural and will keep forever. Peanut oil has a very high flash point and the vegetable shortening will not go "rancid" like animal tallow.

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  20. #60
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    unlike beef and other tallows, mutton/sheep tallow doesn't ever go rancid, even if left out in the open air and unrefrigerated. canning/candle paraffin wax may have some nebulous part of its alloy steeped in petroleum resins, but i and others haven't seen it contribute to bp fouling issues. ymmv.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check