How many grains of BP in a 45-70 case?

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I use a drop tube about 20" and weigh each load 62 gr of Goex FFg into Starline cases. I used to load 68 gr. Then I compress the powder with a wad using a compression die. Then I seat the 405 gr 457193. 62 gr of FFg almost fills the case, and I don't see where a ballon head case would provide that much more room that another 8 gr. would fit. But I've never tried it. I've got a box of old .45-70 that looks like it came from the late 1800's and I'd hate to pull one of the 20 cartridges. My load of 62 gr meets all my needs, but I haven't placed anywhere near respectable at a match yet. My eyes weren't that good when I was testing for the Navy's flight program 35 years ago. Bench rest shooting my Sharps is very accurate. I'm seeking an improvement in accuracy by regular practice out at the range, not at the loading bench right now.

[BrentD]

I'm shooting 82 gr of Swiss 1.5 in my .45-70 today at the a Great Plains Regional.

It is far easier to see and shoot irons at long range than it is at silhouette.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I dumped 70 grains down the drop tube, spilled FFg from overfilling the case.

[Gunlaker]

Silver Hammer Jack you'll find a difference between the various brands that can amount to quite a bit. When using Swiss 1.5 or Goex Express FFg I use the same powder charges as Brent does. This is for a paper patched bullet that is sitting in the case around 0.1".

The cases will hold a bit more. Regular Goex FFg is a lot less dense and has less energy. I had one lot that was only as dense as Fg, it varies a lot from lot to lot. I'm just starting to play with Goex OE 1.5 in my .45-70 PP rifle to see how it does. With that powder I'm under 80 grains to fill the case, but still well over 70.

For my .45-70's using grease grooved bullets they seem to like compressed charges of 68 to 69 grains.

Also what Brent says about BPTR targets being easier to see with irons is definitely true. Consistently centering a turkey in apperture sights is difficult unless you have excellent vision. Mine is still good but I am preparing my rifles for the day I need to use a scope. I shoot better with appertures still.

Chris.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Goex is the only powder I can get at the LGS. I just dumped an overflowing charge of Goex FFg in a resized Starline brass and scraped the powder level. The charge weighed 66 grains.

[hydraulic]

The problem is the resized brass. Most BPCR shooters at the matches, like Don McDowell, do not resize their brass and this leaves enough room for 70 grains, dropped through a drop tube, to nearly fill the case with enough room for a card wad to make a 1/4 inch compression. I'm talking grease groove bullets.

[Don McDowell]

I've been slow pouring 69 grs of 1.5 OE into resized Winchester cases compressing .25 and seating a 535 gr money bullet to the driving band. 70 grs of OE 2f with a 520 gr money bullet.. Prior to that I shot 72 grs of KIK 2f, 72 grs of Express, and 69 grs of Cartridge in resized 45-70 cases. Some powders thrive on compression, others not so much.
But getting 70 grs of 2f blackpowder into a 45-70 case is a really common practice.
The reason I'm resizing those Winchester cases is I'm fire forming them in a different rifle. The Remington cases that the wife's rifle uses only get a resizing about every 4-5 reloads, but still 70 grs of 2f.. Last time out she shot a 76 1x at 600 with a miss..from sitting position.. with the crossticks rested immediately in front of the rifles forearm..

[Klaus]

Hi Ken,

you got some good advises from well skilled BPCR Guys.

i have had also read and follow their advises to try and find out what are the best for me.

for my personal use and limited range about 100m
i settled on 62 - max. 65 grs. of FFg Powder and a 520 or 405 grs bullet.

using a blow tube and emmerts lube makes me able to shoot 40 or more round without loss of accuracy.

if you need a load for long range ( above 200 m) or hunting issues fill the brass with with 70 grs or what ever you can press in it and be happy.

my 2 cents from Germany

Klaus

[Area Man]

Several things factor into this. ....

Will you typically be able to get slightly more FFG than FG because of the finer granulation?

[Gunlaker]

Most of the time the FFg will be more dense so yeah. But I have had exceptions with plain Goex.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Will you typically be able to get slightly more FFG than FG because of the finer granulation?

Usually 2f is smaller grain size than F, but that's only a valid comparision when using the same brands. Example 2f Swiss,Schuetzen and now Old Eynsford is closer in size to 3f Goex and KIK.

[BrentD]

And same lot # of the same brand as well. Frankly, I don't always see the finer grains being heavier for a given volume.

[KenH]

@Klaus: You are correct, there is LOTS of knowledge that is shared on this forum. I've been reading for many pages back and learning a LOTS.

OK folks, this morning I did some measuring and took time to make sure each case measure was level full. The case was Starline case, checked both an unfired and a fired case (seated a fired primer in both cases). The fire formed case only held a couple of tenths more powder than the unfired case. When I measured powder at first post, the case wasn't completely full, but did allow compressing with wads and bullet. Today I made sure each case was level full, filled by pouring from powder can thru a funnel into case. This allowed only slight packing while filling. The following is what I got - all is GEOX powder.

69.5 grain of FFFg
70.2 grain of FFg
76.8 grain of Fg

I was surprised how much the case held of the Fg. I really expected the large grain size to have more air space causing less weight. I expect the large grain size held more power to add weight?

Next question - is the Fg suitable for the 45-70? Would I expect more recoil or less recoil with same size bullet (350 grain) and same weight of powder?

Thanks again to all for sharing so much knowledge.

Ken H>

[BrentD]

If you use a drop tube of 18-30" long, you should get quite a bit more in the case. My standard .45-70 target load is 82 grs of Swiss 1.5 fg. This leaves just enough room for a 0.06" wad. I then compress it very slightly to produce 0.09" of space for the bullet.

There is a fair bit of variation from batch to batch and within and between manufacturer's with respect to powder density.

[Don McDowell]

Ken , yes you can use 1f , the thing you might run into with it , is heavier fouling than the 2f.

[Col4570]

I load 65 Grains of 3f for my 45.70 Pedersoli sharps,this gives me about 1/4" of compression to seat a Postel Bullet to just cover the top Canelure.The bore riding Postel top ring is just clear of the rifling with this loading and gives good accuracy up to 500 yards which is the extent of our range.I use an overpowder card.

[KenH]

Well, I'm not really pushing to get more powder in the case - got plenty of "kick" now. Not as bad as I expected 60 grains of FFg to have behind a 350 grain bullet, but enough.

Col4570 - you said you use overpowder card - is that all you use between powder and bullet? No lube wad or anything? Just the lube in the bullet grooves? I'm looking at a drawing of both the Sage Mold and the Lyman #457132 bullets. Good looking bullet and at 530 grains I'll bet the wind doesn't move it much at 500 yds.

How do you lube the Postell bullet?

Thanks again to all for sharing info.

Ken H>

[Col4570]

KenH,Yes just a Card between the Powder and Bullet,I dip each bullet in my lube ( Beeswax,Tallow,Neutragena Soap and Olive Oil) covering all canelures,the case will scrape off the excess lube as you push the Bullet in.I do not crimp my Cases,nor do I size them after their first fireforming,this will give your cases a long life.Crimping reduces the life of your cases considerably by eventually splitting them at the mouth.With a single shot rifle there is no need for crimping if you keep the loaded rounds in a box that just takes care of the length.If any Bullets feel loose just squeeze the case a little between index finger and thumb.

[Tar Heel]

W-w cases will allow quite a bit more powder than say Remington, not sure about Starline.

As mentioned, WW cases hold more. I can load 70gr (with tapping & compression) in them but 63gr in the Rem, Starline, and FC cases.

[Tar Heel]

I lube my 530gr bullets with 1:2 beeswax to mutton tallow. I hand lube them and seat them over two .020 thick wads cut from a milk carton.