25-20 Wcf

[9.3X62AL]

Awright, let's get this party started! One GREAT idea from Molly.

I now have about 400 cases in 25-20 WCF awaiting refill, to service a Marlin 1894CL so chambered. This rifle will shoot LIGHTS OUT with 11.0-12.0 grains of IMR-4198 and the Speer 75 grain flat-nosed soft point, but I don't think that bullet is long for this world. It also shoots well with the Hornady 60 grainer. My idea is to find a load that shoots well with castings--and that has been an elusive goal for 3-4 years.

Progress so far.........these rifles have 1-14" twist rates, which per my experience and that of a few other posters limits their accuracy with longer bullets (80-90 grain) to varying degrees--esp. if "plinker" loads at reduced velocities are the object. I am beginning to think that plinker loads might not be an option in this caliber, but haven't thrown in the towel yet.

I have 3 boolits at hand that are appropriate for the caliber--Lyman #257420 (70 grain GC/FN), Lyman #257312 (88 grain GC/FN), and RCBS-85-CB (85 grain PB/FN). 80% of my cast boolit work has involved the first design, 15% involves #257312, and the 5% tried with the RCBS PB'er has been dismal.

Overall, #257420 has given the best performance so far, and gets better as it gets run faster (to about 1700 FPS) where it "plateaus" accuracy-wise, and stays about the same (1.5" to 1.75" @ 50 yards) to the limit I've run it to--~2000 FPS. Use of neck-sized cases REALLY reduced the flier dispersion, but the fliers still occur--1 or 2 in a 10-shot group, every time. When I see them in a group, I exclude them--which is kinda bogus, really--but 10 shots out of 11 or 12 will stay inside the 1.5"-1.75" @ 50 yards pretty reliably. Tantalyzing.......accuracy just out of reach, it seems like.

#257312 was awful at 1890 speeds (1450 FPS), and improved somewhat as I ran them faster--but not like the lighter Lyman. Further work is indicated.

More work is pending with the plain-based RCBS castings, too. I don't imagine a PB boolit is going to stay real accurate past about 1400 FPS, but I won't know until I try it.

Flier control might mean scaling boolits. I would prefer a root canal, since eyeballed RCBS 6mm x 95 grain castings can do 1.25"-1.5" at 100 yards in my 788 x 243.......but ya gotta do what ya gotta do, I guess. Buckshot and I spoke yesterday at the range on this subject, referring to the one round per group fliers the 243 was throwing at 100 yards. If scaling does the trick, I see an electronic scale in my future.

[Bret4207]

Al, do you have info that the 75 gr bullet is not going to be around much longer?

Did you trim your brass and check for short cases, ala 32WCF? Do you think the fliers are boolit related or something else?

[9.3X62AL]

No, Bret--no specific info one way or the other, but the item is often out-of-stock at most online order sites.

All the brass was trimmed/even. 25-20 doesn't seem to extend so quickly as the 32-20 does (and Starline 32-20 extends a LOT less quickly and more evenly than the R-P and W-W cases do). BIG problem in many of the 94CL (1989 or so) rifles is "long-chamber"--mine fits this description, so complete F/L sizing has been a no-no since Day 1. It's either partial full length, or neck size. Case seps are a CERTAINTY inside 4 loadings, otherwise. Been there/done that.

Ultimately--I'm trying to avoid the "jacketed only" accuracy sitch, if possible.

[Bent Ramrod]

Al,

I have two .25-20 WCF's, a Stevens 44 that was set back and rechambered and a relined barrel for a Stevens 44-1/2 that alternates with the .25-20 SS and .25-21 barrels I've managed to collect and get relined.

The 44 seems to like the 90-gr 25720 plain base cast bullet with anything between 10 and 12 gr IMR-4198. It also seemed to like 7.75 gr of XMP-5744 with this boolit. 8.5 gr of 4759 and the 257420 was also a good load. Also the same boolit with 10 gr of Pyrodex RS.

The 44-1/2 liked the same loadings as well as 13-14 gr 4198 behind the 257420 HP boolit. The solid version I guess I haven't tried, but there's no reason it should not do as well, maybe with slightly less powder.

You might keep an eye out for the obsolete Ideal 257463, a Loverin design that seems to do well in these cartridges.

Both my 25-20's have iron sights; for me a "good" load is somewhat under an inch to 1-1/4" at 50 yards, under 2" to 2-1/4" at 100 for 5 shots, day in and day out.

[Dale53]

Al;
l have shared my loads with you, in the past. We both have the same rifle (Marlin 1894CL) in that lovely ol' caliber, 25/20.

Like you, I adjust the full length sizing die to match the chamber. My loads are:

1 - High Speed - 257420 linotype with Hornady gas checks ahead of 14.5 grs of RL-7. This is a compressed load. It has not been pressure tested. However, I took five cases, loaded them 20 times and suffered NO case loss nor loosened primer pockets. It is safe in my gun. The velocity is just under 2200 fps. This replicates the old "High Speed" load with a 60 gr jacketed bullet.

2 - Medium velocity - not chronographed. 11.0 grs of RL-7 - everything else the same.

3- Squirrel load (and a serious and terrific squirrel load it is) is same bullet with 4.0 grs of Unique.

Note: All loads use the Remington 6½ small rifle primer.

Accuracy with all is quite similar. Ten shots on the NRA small bore target at 50 yards will reliably print 10's (100x100). "X" count is low but after all, this is a lever action hunting rifle and I don't expect it to equal my Anschutz target rifles nor my Schuetzen bench gun or even my modern bench rifle.

Dale53

[NoDakJak]

I am presently shooting six rifles chambered for the 25-20. Possibly my favorite cartridge. I have tested more than 2,000 rounds thru them during the last several years. Cast boolit accuracy has been dismal to barely adequate. The late Frank Marshall stated that this is due to the lack of a proper throat. He stated that by merely running a throating reamer into his Savage Model 23 it was changed from an average shooter into a match winner with cast boolits. I am going to try it if I can ever raise the money for the reamer. After ten years of searching I finally purchased a NIB Model 1894CL Marlin. I had high hopes for this rifle but alas, several of the others are more accurate. The 87 grain Remington shoots adequate groups in all of them with the 75 grain Speer FN trailing slightly behind. I located a Model 23 Savage for a friend last month and we loaded a box with my old standby, 2400 behind 87 grain Remingtons. He is shooting fifty yard groups that you can cover with a dime. Damxded load never shot nearly that well in my guns. Preliminary testing with Lil Gun has cut group sizes in half with that bullet in my Savage. My Savage is the most accurate with a Sportco Martini close behind. My favorite woods walker however is the oldMarlin Model 27 pump. It has a super slick action, handles superb and works oustandingly for a southpaw. Neil

[Bret4207]

If Frank Marshall said it, it's gospel! I'll have to consider having my Savage 23's throated. Thanks for the info.

BTW- I've suggested to the CBA that they publish all of Frank's articles from the Fouling Shot in book or CD form. I'd put Franks work up with Ken Waters and his writing style up with Skeeters.

[NoDakJak]

Bret, that is an excellent idea that you have about having Frank Marshalls works published. I never got to start reading his stuff until shortly before he passed away.
BTW My Model 23C in 32-20 shoots groups half the size of any of my 25-20's.
Neil

[Bret4207]

Same here on the 23 32-20. 3/4"groups at 50 yards with the 311316 are common. Still working on a really good 25-20 load.

Gotta love those 23 Savages!

[Baron von Trollwhack]

My classic shoots closer to 5/8" groups at 50 yards, < 2" @ 100, 1 1/2 drop.
Anneal fired cases, 1 1/2 or 6 1/2 primers, neck size to seat depth, even out neck tension using a "m" die as a expander till they "feel" the same for tension, 257420 GC at .259 moderately hard unsized, slight crimp, AA1680, AA2200, Data 68, Re-7, H-322, around 14 grains to slight compression the load comes together. Seat for a little lever closing resistance. Cull bullets severely. Few flyers. The AA loads run a chronoed 1850-1950 fps. Substitute the Speer 75 if you like. Use a case full +/- WW748 with the Remington J bullet. The new group buy mould is showing a bit of the same also but I don't have that much time with it yet. Modify lifter to accept longer length cartridges, if neccessary as shown by singleloading. AA loads Utterly devestating on squirrels and opossums. BvT

[35remington]

NoDakJak, guess who just happens to have a Dave Manson .25 caliber throating reamer?

Yes, I can confirm a throated rifle shoots much better, as I have done it on an improperly throated TC Custom shop barrel. You MUST be sure the throat is concentric, though.

Al, the RCBS bullet is overlubricated in my experience which causes groups to open up after a relatively few shots. Removing the lubricant from the grooves of ACWW bullets causes it to bump up and collapse in the grooves on firing, affecting bullet balance. Cast some of wheelweights, heat and quench (I usually get 27 BHN) and tumble lube or JPW for a lighter coating of lubricant.

Shoot seated out as far as practical, over 5.5 2400 or 6.2-6.5 4227 with dacron. In a properly throated OTT .25-20 barrel I'm getting around .75 inch at fifty consistently; these loads shot .9 inch at fifty in my throated Contender barrel; 1.2 inches in the stock badly throated barrel.

A most excellent small game load. Velocity is 12-1300 fps.

[bearmn56]

I have two .25-20s. One is a Savage Sporter and the other is a relined Cadet Martini, with a bushed firing pin, reworked to look like an English Rook rifle.
The Savage Sporter has a large sloppy fitting firing pin. So, I keep the loads for this rifle very mild and this works extremely well. My favorite load for this rifle is 2.2gr of Bullseye, a Winchester small magnum pistol primer, a small 1/2"x1/2" square of 1/4" polyester quilting material (available from most sewing supply stores) behind either an 85gr PB or a .257312 GC bullet. This load chronographs at around 1000fps. Accuracy is one ragged hole at 25 yards. (this rifle has a unique Redfield peep sight that I have never seen before. According to a collector that I know, it is a rare Redfield peep made to fit the Savage's rear sight holes).
My favorite load for the Martini is 12.0gr of Accurate Arms 2015, a Winchester small magnum pistol primer and the .257312GC bullet. This load chronographs at 1650fps. The extreme spread on this load is under 25fps in my rifle. Accuracy is clover leafs at 25yds.
Both rifles have conventional rifling (non micro-groove) with a 1-14 twist. All loads are in Winchester cases trimmed to minimum length. Neither of these loads have the bullets crimped.
Both barrels, per the Lyman cast bullet manual, have had ALL of the copper jacket fouling removed and have then been used exclusively with lead bullets since with no problems. My experience has shown that some barrels with jacket fouling will shoot cast bullets poorly.
For example, I have a .416 Taylor that would not shoot cast bullets at all until I cleaned the barrel of ALL jacket fouling. Now it shoots custom 425gr GC bullets as good as it did with jacketed bullets. You might try a jacket fouling free barrel if nothing else works.

Bill Smith
Montana Territory

[beagle]

Allen, just for grins, have Buckshot HP that 257312 and give it a try. That may shift the point of balance back a bit and give stability. If you need 50 or so, drop me a PM and a new snail mail address and I'll cast some and send them out.

I had pretty good results with the 257420 in the 1-14 twist. I had better luck but GCing the 25-85-CM RCBS as it's a bit shorter.

I even had some NEI 257312 clones that gave me 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards but the holes were elongated.

We have talked about this and I finally got so aggravated that I had mine rebarrelled with a 1-12 twist 24" Douglas and added a full magazine and the stability isses went away.

Anyhow, give the HPing idea a try./beagle

[Three44s]

A neighbor loaned me his 23B Savage in .25-20 a few years ago.

I have been smitten over this caliber ever since!

I found like 9.3X63AL that it liked the Speer 75 gr. J-word and Dupont 4198.

From then on, I have been watching for a reasonably priced .25-20 anything to no avail!!!

Boo Hooooo!

Three 44s

[45 2.1]

Can someone tell me the actual length of these boolits:

Speer 75 gr. jacketed

Lyman 257420 with GC

25-85-CM RCBS

[Bent Ramrod]

.45-2.1,

Don't know about the RCBS but the Speer measures 0.589" plus or minus .002" while the 257420, sized and lubed with GC is 0.631" with the same variation.

HTH

[Bret4207]

Spring has sprung here in the NE and a walk in the woods and fields with a 25-20 seems like a good idea!

[35remington]

Lyman 257420 - my particular example runs .614" with gascheck installed.

The RCBS 85 CM runs .658."

[Char-Gar]

Humm.... During the mi6-60s, John Wooters wrote several articles on the 25-20. His standard load with Lyman 257312 and his load was 9/4227. This load runs faster than the old factory lead loads, but still is not top end by a long shoot. Wooters said it ran abot 1.7K fps, but I have not fired it over a chrony.

I have been using that load for 30 years. In my Winchester 92 it will deliver 1.25" 50 yard groups and 2.5" 100 yard groups.

I also use this load in my Remington 25 pumpgun. I have only put it on paper enough to adjust the sights. I didn't measure any groups, but memory tells me they were about like the Winchester 92 or a slim hair larger. I can cut a ground squirrel in half at 50 yards and punch holes in a beer can at 100 yards with the rifle and load.

I size the bullets .259 and cast them from Linotype from a four cavity Lyman mold.

I read the stories of fellows having iffy accuracy with cast in thne 25-20, but that has not been my experience. I think the Linotype might has something to do with my sucess. It fills out those little cavities very well and help give good quality bullets. I send some of the bullet to Doc O'Meara a couple of years back and he was getting 50 yard quarter sized groups out of a 25-35 Winchester 94 with a light charge of Unique.