Folks if the smooth bore barrel is under 18 inches it is NFA regardless of any letter.
A letter is only for the addressee. AND the best thing to remember the ATF screws up an awful lot but they will still prosecute you for their mistake.
IT IS NFA with all needs for the legal possession.
Fees=
Form 1 for SBS, SBR, Suppressor, AOW =$200
Form 4 for SBS,SBR, Suppressor,=$200
Form 4 for AOW =$5.00
Don't get caught without an approved paid for one.
Not so.Originally Posted by Geezer in NH
There are a number of firearms that have been made over the years that meet the definition.
Just because you don't think something is legal, doesn't mean it isn't.
As for the letter thing, there are (at least) two types of letters; individual clarification letters (these are good only for the addressee) and manufacturer classification letters.
A clarification letter sent to an individual is providing the person information about the legality for them to possess, use, or do something.
A classification letter is sent to a manufacturer giving them a determination on whether the item in question would be legal to manufacture and sell. A classification letter can be rescinded, but even in the Akins accelerator case, the item submitted was substantially different from the product being manufactured. And in that case, even though there were hundreds that had been sold, none of the buyers were prosecuted of anything, and simply had to surrender their springs.
And for the record, it's Akins, not Atkins, Bill Akins is a cool guy who casts and shoots his own lead bullets as well.
Last edited by NoZombies; 07-20-2015 at 08:04 PM.
Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival
Collecting .32 molds. Please let me know if you have one you don't need, cause I might "need" it!
Same legal reasoning as this one:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...l-nor-a-rifle/
I believe this is the interpretation of a sawed off shotgun. Less than 18" is illegal.
If you want to squabble with the BATF get new never was a shotgun type receiver and put a straight rifled barrel or very slow twist barrel on it.
You no longer have a smooth bore and then you can try to call it a 12 ga slide action pistol.
Last edited by EDG; 07-29-2015 at 04:23 PM.
EDG
Altering an existing shotgun, rifle or handgun into a configuration of something that's manufactured into this configuration is making a NFA item (SBS, SBR, AOW) but if your buying from the maker a NEWLY MADE in a specific configuration that is BATF approved as a NON-NFA item different laws apply
- Remember like the IRS - BATF is making it's own regulations and applying them as they please, common sense and logic as nothing to do with the regulations and their enforcement.
je suis charlie
It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.
Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
I would admonish anyone considering such a firearm (sig brace SBS/SBR or 26"+ AOW) to forget it and go buy a standard rifle, pistol or shotgun or a normal tax paid NFA firearm and not play games with ATF regarding whatever rulings they decide to issue next regarding these "loophole" guns. These recent rulings do NOTHING to help firearm owners and only serve to seriously complicate an already poorly understood national firearms act and create new "loopholes" for ATF to allow people to buy "gray area" guns then turn around and ban them or else just wait around and arrest people caught firing them from their shoulder or concealing them or whatever.
I'm all for repealing the NFA completely along with the FOPA, GCA etc but there is no victory to be had finding tiny loopholes that are liable to clamp shut as soon as you have your hand inside. Just imagine trying to take an illegal-to-shoulder gun to the range and let your friends or kids shoot it. What are you going to do go running and screaming every time someone is about to raise it to their shoulder? The sig brace "loophole" benefits no one except a government agency trying to drum up more violations and arrests.
Also a letter from ATF may not hold any water with your state if your "loophole" firearm is found to be in violation of state laws. Most all states have their own laws regarding NFA type firearms and these laws are often based on federal laws but are not always worded the same or ruled on the same way in court. As an example the State of Indiana convicted a man for carrying a handgun in his car without an Indiana state handgun license. The firearm in question was a pistol grip mossberg 500 shotgun which at that time was classified by ATF as a shotgun/long gun but which the state of Indiana ruled to be a handgun for the purpose of state law requiring the man have a state handgun permit for carrying a handgun in his car. The point being there is nothing to stop any state court from ruling the black ace or any such questionable firearm to be in violation of state laws that restrict shotgun barrel lengths etc and then you can be in just as much hot water as if the feds came after you.
I would not trust the black ace design one wee bit unless I had personally obtained letters from both the ATF and the Florida attorney general. Even then I would see it as a major liability if I was to move to another state or died and left it to unsuspecting family members.
With an AR in "handgun" configuration, you have a buffer tube, but no stock over it. All of my ARs start out this way, even if I eventually convert them to a rifle configuration. The ATF says that this is the way you need to do it and since it doesn't really cost me any more money to do it this way nor overly inconvenience me, I go ahead and do it that way. The thing is, you *can* shoot an AR handgun with the buffer in your shoulder. They supposedly changed their mind on the Sig brace with respect to how you use it constituting "making" it a SBR, but what about just a buffer tube? Are they going to now claim that the buffer tube is now just a somewhat painful stock? What about wearing a heavy coat and using it to soften the blow to your shoulder? What if your coat had a reinforced pad in it that was somewhat firm so that the force could be distributed across more of your shoulder?
What it all boils down to though is that the ATF's category system for SBRs, SBSs, rifles, shotguns, and handguns is completely illogical. Although I completely oppose the mere existence of the ATF, I could see how using their (perverted) "logic" that they might want to have rules about what constitutes a rifle or shotgun vs a handgun, but why should the barrel length make any difference? If someone wants to *decrease* the ballistic performance of their rifle by shortening the barrel, why should the ATF care as long as they keep it over a certain total length?
Avery Arms makes a good point to check with your state and local laws because they don't always match the way the federal government regulations.
Want to get confused some more
This is a cut down Savage 24 - one rifled barrel and one shotgun barrel
the barrels on this are cut at 14" - it started as a long gun from the factory
so it falls under NFA registry - but is it
1) Short barreled shotgun with a $200 tax to transfer
2) short barreled rifle with a $200 tax to transfer
3) Any Other Weapon with a $5 tax to transfer
Oh and to make your decision easier - if the barrel was shortened under 12" it
would change classification.
and if you want to cheat before I post an answer
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...efinitions-any
Last edited by Artful; 07-31-2015 at 03:16 PM.
je suis charlie
It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.
Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
12G? how do you hold it to shoot it? 1Hand? I'm to old for this stuff. Is this really stupid or is it just me?
It's not a hunting gun - more a personal defense weapon - and you'd use two hands to shoot it in most cases but the option is to use one hand and the forearm brace.
je suis charlie
It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.
Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Avery arms
Great post Thanks
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