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Thread: Heavyweight bullets in .38 special/.357 mag.

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Heavyweight bullets in .38 special/.357 mag.

    I'm looking to use some heavyweight projectiles in .38 special/.357 mag. brass shot through my .357 max. contender 10" and encore 26" barrel. I have found data up to 200 grs. I have found 300 gr. boolits I'd like to use but can't find any data...I'd like to use these for deer hunting a property that doesn't like gunshots so I'd like to keep these subsonic. Any advice on where to find some data or advice would be excellent...thanks!

  2. #2
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    I don't think you'll be able to stabilize a 300 gr boolit period.
    a 200 might be pushing things too far at the lower velocity's too.

    I have used aa-2230 in my 357 max revolver with a 250gr boolit at some lowered velocity's, it has a weird sound to it and the boolits are barely stabilized enough to fly towards the paper.

    if I had to try what you are trying I'd go with the 200gr boolit to start and a faster powder to hopefully get the velocity/gas volume thing worked out.
    something like 3.5-4.0 grs of unique then lower that, then step to a faster powder, and work that down.

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  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    I think you'll be perfectly fine with a good 160 to 180 grain flat nose running at just under speed of sound.

    In a fit of experimentation a couple years ago, I decided to tinker with the British 200 grain .38S&W (AKA .380/200) concept by loading Lyman's 195 grain round nose in .357 cases and shooting them with REALLY soft loads. I was fortunate enough to have access to FBI-spec gelatin blocks for a couple rounds. At only 570 fps, these augured completely through an 18" block of the stuff in a perfectly straight line. You can add almost 600 fps to that before you start making supersonic cracks - so no, you don't need a ton of lead to adequately perforate Bambi. The trick to lower noise is longer barrels and faster powders that reach their peak pressure after only a few inches. At that point, the rest of the barrel becomes an expansion chamber and the longer it is, the closer the pressure is to the outside air at the moment of exit. The result - less "POP!"
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I've used 4.5 grains of Unique behind a home-swaged 195 (up to 205 gr) in the 38 Special for 30+ years. From a snub-nose revolver the 195 gr exits at 710-725 fps and shows no sign of instability at close/moderate range. It penetrates very deep.
    I have no doubt that a properly designed soft 200+/- gr projectile is more than adequate for your intended purpose, with good shot placement.

    A few loads listed in the old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for the 357 M with the 195 gr 358430 using a universal receiver with 8 3/8" test barrel:
    Bullseye 3.0...755 fps...14600 CUP Max...4.0 gr... 895 fps...20400 CUP
    Unique 5.0... 985 fps... 21K CUP Max...6.5... 1185 fps...37700 CUP
    2400 10.0...985 fps...22800 CUP Max...12.5...1330 fps...39K CUP
    700X 3.0...740 fps...15400 CUP Max...4.5...970 fps... 34500 CUP
    SR4756 4.5...805 fps...12900 CUP Max...7.0...1130...35K CUP
    IMR4227 9.0...865 fps...16300 CUP Max...13.5...1265...39400 CUP
    630 9.0...1060 fps...23400 CUP Max...11.5...1280...36900 CUP
    AL-8 7.0...915 fps...18600 CUP Max...11.0...1310 fps...34400 CUP

    Standard disclaimer; As always, use safe practices by starting low and working up. Every firearm is unique.

  6. #6
    bhn22
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    I agree with R5R, I don't believe you have a fast enough twist for 300 gr bullets. I'm guessing you'd need about a 1-12 or faster twist to achieve your stated goal. I had difficulty getting decent accuracy out of full power 357 mag loads with Lymans 358627 silhouette bullet in a Contender many years ago. I finally quit that particular project and used that design with 3.5 gr of 700X for bowling pins instead. Velocities were low, but the bullet only had to travel 21 feet . Many 35 caliber rifles have difficulty with 300 gr bullets too, also primarily because of the 1-14 & 1-16 twist rates commonly used. BTW, Lymans "Pistol & Revolver Reloading Handbook" is a great resource for projects like this, I have all three editions, but favor the older Second Edition. That said, I still haven't found reliable loading data for bullets heavier than 220-ish grains anywhere for 357 mag or Max. Here are a couple of Glen Fryxell links from CBRicks site that you may find helpful: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell357Max.htm http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    A 12" twist will stabilize 300-grain bullets subsonic. A 14" twist does so only marginally, but seems to work with #3589 which is short and blunt for its weight.

    In my 16" twist .35 rifle I use a 260-grain LBT flatnosed bullet which is 0.95" long and it is stable and accurate down to 1000 fps.
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  8. #8
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    Back in the 70's while I was employed in a full service gun store, by that I mean we did gun repair, stock work, bluing, and sold both loaded and components for reloading ammo. We had just received our shipment of Super Vel ammo with our Jobber contract for our Southern area. At that time if you went into a store and asked for a box of 38 spl. ammo, you were handed a box of 38 spl. ammo loaded with the 158 gr. round nose lead bullet, that was it. We also sold the 38 spl. ammo loaded with a rnlb that weighed 200 grains. This was touted as a hard hitting bullet that would knock a man down, go through a car engine and other fairy tales that was standard gun store talk.
    Lee Juras was a man who used very light jacketed bullets loaded with fast powders to obtain speeds of over 1200 fps in the 38 and 357 mag ammo. He also produced the 380, 9mm, 45acp, 44mag at that time. All the gun magazines were going crazy with articles on this new ammo. When asked why he developed this ammo, he stated that he was tired of all the false statements of the current ammo being sold, especially the 200 grain bullets. Juras stated in his testing that the 200 grain bullet would fail to penetrate into the body of a dummy that was covered with several layers of clothing.
    A friend of mine decided to do some testing and see if the 200gr. was as bad as stated. We had a junk car that was perfect for the auto testing, a 1951 Chevrolet. Back in those days, all vehicles came with what we called vent windows or butterfly glass. This was just forward of the regular door glass and they would swivel in and out to direct air towards the driver and passenger. For you younger members, we had no AC in cars at that time, believe it or not.
    Juras had stated in his testing that the 200 gr. 38 would not even go through this vent window. Well, he was correct, fired from a distance of about 5 ft, the round caused a huge rock chip looking depression but failed to go through to the inside of the vehicle. We were shocked as we had believed all the old hype told to us. We also found the same failure when fired through the car doors, side panels and also through the curved rear glass.
    All of the current high performance ammo and components to load the high performance ammo we have today is because of what Lee Juras did so many years ago.
    Shooter of the "HOLY BLACK" SASS 81802 AKA FAIRSHAKE; NRA ; BOLD; WARTHOG;Deadwood Marshal;Bayou Bounty Hunter; So That his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat; 44 WCF filled to the top, 210 gr. bullet

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    To suggest that a lightweight projectile at high speed will out-penetrate a similarly designed heavyweight from the same cartridge (any cartridge, 38 Spcl or 30-06, for that matter) in a hunting or self-defense role, when loaded to their potential, is a mistake. It is totally incorrect.
    Burning a hole in sheet metal with a hard, fast bullet while a soft, slow bullet flattens and dents the same material has nothing to do with penetration in a soft tissue target. It's a carnival trick, nothing more.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master enfield's Avatar
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    I got a 9mm liner from track of the wolf and lined a worn out Lee Enfield barrel but I have yet to try heavy boolits ( the 9mm liners are 1 in 10" twist ). someday I will get the NOE .360 200gr RN, I think it should work fine.

    hey, watch where ya point that thing!

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    I got accurate molds to make me a mold for the .360dia. 38-200 webley. I read that the first bullets for the 38 webley was a 200 gr. bullet and they really liked it, but came down to about a 150 gr. the mold was suppose to be a 200 gr. wad cotter. in pure lead it turned out to be 215gr. WC. I don't shoot the webleys much but it makes a awesome bullet in .38 cases necked down to .356 or 357. in my .357's , many different revolvers, it seems to be a very accurate round. My 686, and M-28 like these bullets. we have a plate rack down here and that 215 gr WC knocks the plates down "HARD" ok, so my primer are a little flat, but these bullets are awesome. I have forgoten what powder I was using.

  12. #12
    bhn22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    To suggest that a lightweight projectile at high speed will out-penetrate a similarly designed heavyweight from the same cartridge (any cartridge, 38 Spcl or 30-06, for that matter) in a hunting or self-defense role, when loaded to their potential, is a mistake. It is totally incorrect.
    Burning a hole in sheet metal with a hard, fast bullet while a soft, slow bullet flattens and dents the same material has nothing to do with penetration in a soft tissue target. It's a carnival trick, nothing more.
    Is that why the military uses so much AP ammo with discarding sabots? Velocity is the real key, but it has to be backed up by a decent bullet design. Most indoor ranges don't allow the use of 223 ammo on the std bullet traps because it will damage the traps rather severely. I once asked if I could use some of the old nylon and copper 223 training bullets at my indoor range, and the owner turned as white as a sheet. He actually made me give him the ammo to hold at the front desk so I didn't somehow accidentally fire some at his new, high dollar rifle trap and punch holes in it. He said it wasn't the bullet construction, it was the velocity, which was listed at almost 4000 fps for that load.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhn22 View Post
    Is that why the military uses so much AP ammo with discarding sabots? Velocity is the real key, but it has to be backed up by a decent bullet design. Most indoor ranges don't allow the use of 223 ammo on the std bullet traps because it will damage the traps rather severely. I once asked if I could use some of the old nylon and copper 223 training bullets at my indoor range, and the owner turned as white as a sheet. He actually made me give him the ammo to hold at the front desk so I didn't somehow accidentally fire some at his new, high dollar rifle trap and punch holes in it. He said it wasn't the bullet construction, it was the velocity, which was listed at almost 4000 fps for that load.
    It's funny that the military abandoned higher velocity lighter weights in a standard FMJ for heavier projectiles designed similary and launched SLOWER... By the way, penetration on a target simulating a steel helmet was the priority, and the effective range practically doubled.
    How many standard FMJ 55 grainers are being issued today???
    Why has the rifling twist rate in US military 5.56 been increased over issue weapons from the early eighties???
    These are simple facts.

  14. #14
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    190gr rcbs sil boolit gas checked .357 case 11.5gr 2400 =1250fps from my win94ae.very accurate sized .358.crimped in crimp grove but has to be loaded deeper in case for marlins.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    To suggest that a lightweight projectile at high speed will out-penetrate a similarly designed heavyweight from the same cartridge (any cartridge, 38 Spcl or 30-06, for that matter) in a hunting or self-defense role, when loaded to their potential, is a mistake. It is totally incorrect.t Burning a hole in sheet metal with a hard, fast bullet while a soft, slow bullet flattens and dents the same material has nothing to do with penetration in a soft tissue target. It's a carnival trick, nothing more.
    cainttype, If you are referring to my posting, I made no claims about any light bullets going through steel or any other material for that matter. My posting had to do with the inferior performance of the old 38 spl. ammo loaded with the 200 grain bullet, nothing more nor less.
    To call what happened to the ammo industry in the late 60's and earlier 70's a carnival trick is pure BS on your part. I will have to borrow a quote from Elmer Keith on this one "Hell, I was There" Later David
    Shooter of the "HOLY BLACK" SASS 81802 AKA FAIRSHAKE; NRA ; BOLD; WARTHOG;Deadwood Marshal;Bayou Bounty Hunter; So That his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat; 44 WCF filled to the top, 210 gr. bullet

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    High velocity, hard, lightweight projectiles burning a hole in metal (or breaking through auto glass) that a heavier, soft bullet mushrooms on (or deflects off of) has nothing to do with penetration on soft tissue targets. Getting through a barrier is a different subject than penetration on an animal.
    In that context, it is a carnival trick. It is a valid performance trait that leads some to think of penetration in only one aspect, when often times there are other things to consider.
    I have "been there, too", many times, and I can assure you that the heavier projectiles this thread is exploring will consistently out-penetrate any similarly designed lightweight.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    I'd like to mention here the, much written about, point of diminishing returns. This is where your bullet length invades powder capacity to the point you start loosing power.

    I have the 195 grain Lyman bullet and the 230 grain bowling pin full wad cutter. They are both good for what they are made for.
    The thing to take into account here is a major league picture who throws a 100 mph fast ball is hitting 147 fps. Don't know off had the weight of a baseball but the energy there would easily exceed a 44 magnum. My favorite killing bullet for my 38 Special revolvers is the NOE copy of Lyman #358429 semi wad cutter weighing in at 177 grains. I have 170 and 180 grain RNFP gas checked bullets that make a 357 magnum perform. A friend used some of my 205 grain RNFP rifle bullets in a single shot 357 magnum rifle with excellent results. They have a bore ride nose so less body down into the case allowing for more power than a revolver cylinder length load with 205 grain bullets would allow. With your Contender and Encore that would be an option. You need a gas check IMHO for full power rifle loads in 357 mag or max anyway. Some bullet similar to the RCBS 35-200-RNFP is all the power you'll get and as heavy a bullet as you can utilize. 300 grain bullets are for 35 Whelan and even those don't usually use that much bullet.

    Here is a photo of the RCBS bullet #35-200-FN which weighs 220 grains from wheel weights. Next to my custom 205 grain bullet on the right. Either of these bullets are plenty beefy even for the 357 Max IMHO.

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    I have a .35 Whelen Ackley with a 1:14" twist, and even that seems to be challenged in handling 300 gr. bullets or thereabouts. I believe T/C uses a 1:16" twist in their .357's, and given that, I think R5R's right, and I'd go with a little less bullet weight. In getting your loads as quiet as possible, I'd also cast fairly soft, use a good soft lube, and keep the weight nearer 200 gr. than 300. The main thing, as I understand it, that you're looking for is a load that'll penetrate and kill your deer, without upsetting the settlers around there, and R5R gives excellent advice on that, with all the amens by others. FWIW, I have a friend who's been shooting deer for many, many years for local farmers who have problems with large amounts of deer eating what they plant, and he's used everything you can think of, usually riding through the areas after work with whatever gun is handy, and he's killed deer with everything from a .22 pistol to .45/70, and it's always shot placement that matters most. Place a good bullet, even a good .22 RF, in the right place, and they just don't go far. Mind that I'm talking about our smaller southern whitetails here, though. Big ol' mulies or really big whitetails make this much more "iffy" than the ones my buddy shoots on these DNR permits. For quietest performance, I'd stick with the rifle. I think you'd find it much quieter, and that CAN be a real asset sometimes, and a just barely sub-sonic bullet of 168-215 gr. with a flat point to help emphasize impact effect would be my choice. It'll kill deer MUCH more reliably than most would give it credit for, when used with precision. FWIW?

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    I have a .35 Whelen Ackley with a 1:14" twist, and even that seems to be challenged in handling 300 gr. bullets or thereabouts. I believe T/C uses a 1:16" twist in their .357's, and given that, I think R5R's right, and I'd go with a little less bullet weight. In getting your loads as quiet as possible, I'd also cast fairly soft, use a good soft lube, and keep the weight nearer 200 gr. than 300. The main thing, as I understand it, that you're looking for is a load that'll penetrate and kill your deer, without upsetting the settlers around there, and R5R gives excellent advice on that, with all the amens by others. FWIW, I have a friend who's been shooting deer for many, many years for local farmers who have problems with large amounts of deer eating what they plant, and he's used everything you can think of, usually riding through the areas after work with whatever gun is handy, and he's killed deer with everything from a .22 pistol to .45/70, and it's always shot placement that matters most. Place a good bullet, even a good .22 RF, in the right place, and they just don't go far. Mind that I'm talking about our smaller southern whitetails here, though. Big ol' mulies or really big whitetails make this much more "iffy" than the ones my buddy shoots on these DNR permits. For quietest performance, I'd stick with the rifle. I think you'd find it much quieter, and that CAN be a real asset sometimes, and a just barely sub-sonic bullet of 168-215 gr. with a flat point to help emphasize impact effect would be my choice. It'll kill deer MUCH more reliably than most would give it credit for, when used with precision. FWIW?
    Well Hunters Supply was nice enough to send me a few 300 gr. bullets to test with my last order. They will fit in my .357 Max. chamber so I will measure the case capacity to see if it will even get out the barrel but the real test will be in the .38 special case. 3grs. of Trail Boss will fit in that case...not sure if that is enough to clear 10" contender barrel let alone 24" encore barrel. More research needed! [IMG]Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by AllOutdoors.22; 10-02-2015 at 01:11 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check