Case forming 7.65 Argentine from 30-06. Which die works?

[mrappe]

I bought a RCBS case forming die for the 7.65 Arg for my 1891 Argentine. I formed the cases from WWC 30-06 new brass and then ran them thru a Lee sizing die. When I try to chamber a case the bolt will not shut. I have seen in older posts that the Lee die is for the Belgian & Argentine and that the Belgian chamber is a little larger. Unfortunately I managed to get two sets of Lee dies which I now cannot use. Are there any other dies made by someone that are only for the Argentine that will work without moding. I have seen where some one has shortened the Lee die and it worked but I don't think that I have the equipment to accurately do that or know of anyone that can do it for me.
Thanks

[leadman]

I have been forming 7.65 Arg. for over 25 years. Started out using a Lee sizer die but then bought the RCBS trim die. After you form them and trim run them thru your full length sizer. If this doesn't work try annealing the case shoulder and mouth and full length size again. If they still don't chamber you can file the top of the shellholder down some and resize.
I did buy a set of the Belgian dies from RCBS IIRC and they do work better.
If all of that fails send the cases to me and I will resize them for just the cost of return shipping.

[Larry Gibson]

If you look at the Lee die box those dies are for the 7.65 Belgian Mauser. Numerous experts and publications advise the 7.65 Belgian and the 7.65 Argentine are the same cartridge. In essence, as you've found out, there are subtle differences. The main difference is in the chamber headspace. The Belgian chambers generally run about .010" longer headspace than the Argentine chambers. The Belgian bores and groove diameters are usually .002 - .003 larger than the Argentine's. The Lee dies you have will work very nicely if you grind or lathe cut .010 - .012 of the bottom of the FL die. Chamfer and polish the inside of the mouth after the grind/cut. Then adjust the die to size the case so you feel a slight crush as the bolt closes on the case. Your cases will then be a perfect fit to the headspace of your rifle. The seating die does not need altering.

This is not a defect with your Lee 7.65 dies BTW as they are correct for the Belgian cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[Adam Helmer]

I have been reforming .30-06 brass for my 7.65mm Argentines for 40 years with no problems. I remove the decapping rod from the RCBS 7.65mm resizing die, lube the .30-06 cases and run them into the one-half turned OUT resizing die. I trim the cases to minimum length, then run them into the assembled 7.65mm resizing die turned in JUST enough to get a slight "crunch" fit in the rifle chamber.

I make all my 30-06/7.65mm cases in my 7.65mm RCBS resizing die as described above.

Adam

[Mytmousemalibu]

I case form 7.65 Argentine using 06 brass and use the standard Lee 7.65 dies but with a slight modification as mentioned. I had to remove a little material off the base of the sizing die as the die comes it doesn't set the shoulder back quite far enough and if you can even get the bolt to close on the brass it will be very tight without modding the die. Lee will tell you this themselves as they didn't intend for their dies to be used for forming. I had run into the same issue with my Lee die for 7.62x25 Tokarev when case forming off .223/5.56 brass. That's the great thing about Lee dies, they are cheap enough to tune for your own needs and not feel bad about it. Cheap to replace the parts or just buy the parts to make what you need.

Nobody makes a 7.62x54R Collet neck sizing die as an on the shelf die or without spending some serious money to have one custom made, least in my searches. I made one with Lee CNS die parts from .303 Brit & 7.5x55 Swiss and a little machining. It was pretty cheap to make and not very hard at all and it works a peach!

Forgot to add: I'm using some old once fired Korean 06 brass I got for cheap to make my Argy brass. That stuff is tough! Its had plenty of time to age harden and let what ever residue snack on it before I got it. It takes a good annealing job to make it workable and use a good lube, Imperial or pure lanolin in my instance.

[troyboy]

I used the Lee dies. Same issue you described. Trimmed the shellholder. Worked exactly as expected.

[bob208]

I have been using lyman fl die since 72. nothing special at all just run the brass in then cut and trim to length. then ream the neck with a .311 reamer.

[Larry Gibson]

Both the RCBS and the Lyman dies are made for the 7.65 Argentine and are also workable with the 7.65 Belgian. Just not the other way with many if not most of Lee dies as they are for the 7.65 Belgian.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

they are.
I use the lee for one rifle and the rcbs for the other 2 rifles.
I use the LEE die to make the initial size down from 30-06 before trimming.
then I either re-size with the rcbs die or re-size with the LEE again depending on which rifle I'm making the brass for.

[mrappe]

I have the RCBS case forming die and it works OK but as I said before I don't have the equipment (lathe) to alter the Lee dies and shell holder and I don't trust myself to grind or file the correct amount evenly on them either. I just need to get a die which is correct for the Arg and not the Belgian. I am sure some of you are good at "fixing" the Lee die and I appreciate all of the advice but I think I will attempt it only as a last resort.

Thanks

[Mk42gunner]

Lyman dies worked for me back about 1992-3. Make sure you check your neck thickness, it may need to be reamed or turned.

Robert

[Mytmousemalibu]

It's a pretty easy fix with a little patience and a pinch of your time, even without a lathe. And best of all, that Lee die body is only $14.00 if you get it wrong or just want an unmodified die body also.

If you have a bench grinder and or a drill press you can do a pretty good job at shortening one and it will work just as good as one turned on a lathe. I've done it both ways. Color the base of the die with a sharpie or Dykem, etc. You can roughly figure out how much you need to shorten your die by measuring against once fired brass from your gun (that chambered fine originally) or even by measuring against factory ammo. Or the longer route by trimming and testing till you get your brass right. Scribe the amount to remove into the ink on the die with some calipers. You can remove the bulk of the material with the side of a flat bench grinder stone. Best to hold the die flat on the stone with the grinder off. Don't hold it in one spot, slide it across the stone as it turns and rotate 90 degrees often. You can stop at any time and check your work for symmetry with a mic or calipers. Once you get close, proceed slowly. If you have a drill press, get a flat, fine grit disk stone and with super light pressure, lower it into contact with the freshly ground face to true it up using the same methods of symmetrical removal. If you don't have access to a drill press you can finish by hand with a flat surface and sand/emery paper and or stones. You will need to rechamfer the die mouth. A fine cone and or ball stone chucked in a drill or air tool will do nicely and again finish with fine paper and a dowel to smooth it out. It goes without saying, be careful with shop tools if you try but its not a hard job to do and for a simple home method, it will work quite well. I have a couple that look as nice as my lathe turned die mods. The stones & paper can be had about anywhere tools are sold. If it's still not your cup of tea, it shouldn't be hard to find someone who could chuck it in a lathe for you, perhaps a CB member.

[mrappe]

I have been using lyman fl die since 72. nothing special at all just run the brass in then cut and trim to length. then ream the neck with a .311 reamer.

I have never used a reamer. I am not sure if this is a die or how it is reamed. Does this tool come complete as is or is it part of a die?

[bob208]

no I bought a reamer separate. my thoughts were you are moving the neck back and the brass would be thicker so I reamed the necks. I was using military brass.
when running the cases in the 06 shoulder becomes the end of the neck for the 7.65. I used that line and a tubing cutter for a rough trim.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Same here on trim length on 06 brass. I like the tubing cutter, its clean and easy for cases you have enough meat to grip them. I have even used the Lee case holder/chuck adapter for the trimmer setup to really trim cases fast. Still wouldn't mind having a Proxxon saw though. For reaming necks, I have plenty of straight & twist flute hole reamers I also use for cases to inside-neck ream. I have a "collet" that fits in my Redding 1400 case trimmer that holds the reamers and use it as if I were trimming cases. Works pretty good and there's no step on the outside of the neck from turning it down.

[mrappe]

What size reamer would I need to ream the inside of the neck?

[mrappe]

I tried taking out the expander-decapper from the die and then put a 0.014" feeler gauge into the bottom of the shell holder and ran the case up again in the die after annealing it and the empty case then chambered easily into the rifle. I tried loading a bullet (Moyer's cast lead gas check 303 Brit 313 dia. 180 GR FP) into the case without primer/powder and the neck bulged on on side and was too tight. I then re-sized a case with the feeler guage with a whole in it for the pin and was able to seat a bullet evenly OK. I tried several and the rounds chamber OK with just a little tightness when opening and closing the bolt. I am still trying to determine if the necks need to be reamed/thinned as every once in a while some of them are tighter when removing as the bolt turns.

[kungfustyle]

Sell the Lee, buy an RCBS. Listen to Mr Larry on this one. I just did the exact same thing a year and a half ago. if you make a shim to go under the brass to push it up just a hair more it will work. But save the head ache and buy the RCBS die.

[Larry Gibson]

.......... I am still trying to determine if the necks need to be reamed/thinned as every once in a while some of them are tighter when removing as the bolt turns.

I've been forming cases for '06 cases loading for my 7.65 Argies for 25+ years now. Had the same question when I started out and found the chambers were generous enough that it wasn't necessary to turn/ream the necks. I tested with turned necks and found no improvement in accuracy. What does improve accuracy by keeping the inside of the neck concentric to case/bore alignment is to use a Lyman .31 M - die to uniformly expand the inside of the neck. The use of the M - die also did away with bullets seating crooked.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

Larry had me questioning which dies I had so I went to the garage and took a picture of the box.