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Thread: KABOOM through SEE, what truth lies in this?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master frnkeore's Avatar
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    I totally agree with Larry Gibson. I've been loading since 1985 and have read several warnings about reducing W-296 or H-110 below the published start data. These warnings were printed in the reloading manuals. That's good enough for me.
    First, can you tell me the several what publication that you read this in. I know of two, one Hodgdon but, they load it down in there manual to extremely low density and Olin is the other but, they do not recommend down loading 760 or 785 and people on this forum down load those two and know one seems to care about that.

    Second, do you know of anyone that ever had trouble with reduced loads of 296/H110, when shooting them in a rifle?

    I know of other people that load 760 with high ES's, does that mean that the pressure is spiking and they are near SEE?

    Frank

  2. #42
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    I often use reduced loads of slow burners with cast. When these discussions come up I read the things, but always with the thought, it isn't going to happen with cast, not even with a 36BHN babbitt bullet! Others have the SEE idea and will avoid such loads.
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  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy Prospector Howard's Avatar
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    My Lyman reloading manual warns against using reduced loads with 296 and my Winchester reloaders manual also says and I quote "Do not reduce powder charges with 296 powder. Any further reduction in powder charge or changes in components can cause dangerous pressures". I kind of think I'll stick with that advice. There are alot of other powders that work very well with reduced loads and there is no need to tempt fate with a warning like that.
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  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    A few of the others have already named them I will add Hornady to the list and IIRC Speer also.

    I've never heard of any problems or potential problems with "other" slow burning powders just spherical ball type.

    I have had hang fires with H-335, W-760 and H-414. Just think about it. What can happen when there is a hang fire. The initial pressure from the primer can dislodge the bullet from the case and stick it in the lands.Then you have a powder that is designed to burn under pressure igniting in a larger area than what the data called for and having to get a bullet moving that is stuck in the rifling.

    This sounds like the perfect scenario for an over pressure event.

    Motor

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector Howard View Post
    My Lyman reloading manual warns against using reduced loads with 296 and my Winchester reloaders manual also says and I quote "Do not reduce powder charges with 296 powder. Any further reduction in powder charge or changes in components can cause dangerous pressures". I kind of think I'll stick with that advice. There are alot of other powders that work very well with reduced loads and there is no need to tempt fate with a warning like that.
    Under which cartridges does Lyman issue the warning? Are the warnings in a rifle cartridge?

    I have read often, the high intensity slow burning rifle powders were the most likely to produce SEE.

    To be clear are we talking about ALL cartridges that 296/H110 are used in or a select few?
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  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badgeredd View Post
    .........To be clear are we talking about ALL cartridges that 296/H110 are used in or a select few?
    The OP was inquiring about the 30-06 and the 7.5 Swiss.

    Larry Gibson

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayjay1 View Post
    What was the reason? Like Larry Gibson said, X grain of powder Y brings Z energy, not more, and not less. Thatīs pure physics and logical to me.
    Reason unknown, but I drove the guy to the hospital and his rifle was totalled. Sounded like a grenade going off.

    Could have been double charge, but who knows. I know in cal. .50 and 20mm in cold-box tests it was possible to get high pressure spikes when powder grains shattered from primer blast in extreme cold and exposed undeterred base grain.

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  8. #48
    Boolit Master frnkeore's Avatar
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    For 7.5 Swiss, i do not think there is any PUBLISHED reduced load data. Jacketed or cast, that I know of.

    We all take chances when we reload a cartridge case. We as humans, are not infallable.

    Motor,
    Can you cite the Hornaday manual and page, I'm not aware of it. As I posted, earlier Speer has published H110, reduced pistol loads for the 30/30.

    Frank
    Last edited by frnkeore; 07-07-2015 at 01:25 AM.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Frank. I will try to find it. I am sure it was like a little side warning simply stating that the starting loads with those powders should not be reduced by more than 10%.

    I did see the reduced load in 30-30 in my 1985 Speer manual. I was suprized to see that.

    Motor

  10. #50
    Boolit Master frnkeore's Avatar
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    Since I can't find any PUBLISHED CB data for the G11, I did some QL estimates for kind of standard loads, using the NOE 311 180 FN (K31), seated at the neck/shoulder junction, giving a 2.939 COAL.

    Since no one seems concerned about using H414/Win 760, I added what might be a reasonable load for it and everyone knew that I would also add a load for H110/296

    H414, 40.0 gr = 21,150 psi, 1990 fps

    Varget, 34.0 gr = 20,800 psi, 1915 fps

    2400, 16.0 gr = 16,500 psi, 1582 fps

    H110, 19.0 gr = 14,500 psi, 1572fps

    AA#9, 17.0 gr = 18,100 psi, 1601 fps

    H4227, 19.0 gr = 13,400 psi, 1547 fps

    Unique, 10.0 gr = 17,800 psi, 1352 fp

    How about some original powder for it?

    RL17, 40.0 gr = 24,550 psi, 2100 fps

    And then, some really slow stuff.

    H870, 56.0 gr = 21,200, 1983 fps


    As always, use this QL data at your own risk. But, if anyone does use it, please report back as to how accurate the velocitys are. The QL barrel length was 26"



    Frank
    Last edited by frnkeore; 07-07-2015 at 04:20 PM.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master frnkeore's Avatar
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    I don't own the Horaday #9 manual but, I just took a quick look through it while looking for powder. They give a fair amount of H110/296 loading data and I looked to see if there where any warnings, I specifically looked in the safety section and there were no warning for H110/296.

    For the 300 Whisper/300 BO. Starting loads as low as 7.4 gr, less than 38% of the case volume when the bullet is seat at the neck/shoulder juction of the cartridge or 30% of the total case volume. The top and bottom loads were 10 - 14 gr powder in some of loads and the same powder loads for the 7.62 X 25 (90 gr), no warning about H110/296, at all. It was suggested that it was the best to use in the 30 Herrett and much larger spreads than the 3% - 10% what everyone here warns about. There were also large spreads in the 357 Herrett.

    The following is from another 296 thread that I've discussed it's use:

    I just measured some full case capacity's in cartriges that I use 296:

    30/40 Krag = 58.2 gr, 296

    32/35 Stevens = 33.3 " "

    8.15 X 46R = 40.2 " "

    32/40 Ballard = 43.3 " "

    The 8 X 57 cartridge is 61.0 gr with federal brass.

    Filled to the juncture of the neck and shoulder the capacity is 52.3 gr.

    Percent of case capacity for loads that I use.

    30/40 Krag, 18.0 gr = 31%

    32/35 Stevens, 10.0 gr = 30% This is a .308 groove chambering.

    8.15 X 46R, 10.5 gr = 26%

    32/40 Ballard, 12.5 gr = 29%

    If you use 18.0 gr in the 8x57 it's 29.5% of full case capacity and loaded to the juncture of the neck/shoulder it's 34.4%.

    Note the similarity between the full case and the neck/shoulder volume of the 18.0 gr charge of the 8 X 57 and the 7.4 gr charge of the 300 BO.

    Frank

  12. #52
    Boolit Master frnkeore's Avatar
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    Let me add something here, I've said this before but, not in this thread. I DO NOT advocate the heavily reduced loadings of H110/296 in revolver applications (more than 15%).

    It's use in revolvers is where this reduced powder phobia got it's start and the reason is because of the non restrictive throats and the cylinder gap. As we know, not all cylinder gaps are well spaced. The wider the gap, the more pressure is released and the more chance that it can cause a flame out, with this powder. That dosen't happen in chambers that don't leak powder gas.

    I've used this powder for 30 years and others in my shooting discipline have used it for even longer. As I posted before, there are multimillions of LOW pressure shots fired with it and NO problems encountered.

    Frank

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy pcmacd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayjay1 View Post
    I think someone inhere wrote something about fillers in the Lyman book, canīt find it right now.

    But Iīve read the book and donīt remember loads where fillers where recommended.

    Can you tell me, where I can find this?
    I read an article not too long ago in a back issue of Precision Shooting (PS); a report of fillers in reduced loads in rifle cartridges.

    It was an investigation, and not a test.

    I have posted this elsewhere, maybe even here, so I apologize for the rerun if it is so.

    Forgive me, I have 20 years of PS and canno put me hands on the article in question w/o a significant archaeological dig.

    ~~~~~
    The author basically found that using Dacron, or any MAN MADE fiber SIGNIFICANTLY increased the barrel ringing prospects.

    He supposed that the ignition "fused" the man made fibers into a solid plug which administered all manner of havoc to the barrel.

    Makes sense to me.

    The author also noted no documented instance (that he could locate) regarding natural fillers such as cotton or kapok ever caused a problem.

    Apparently (conjecture on my part) natural fillers don't fuse and play hell as barrel obstructions?

    Please don't ask me to find the reference as it would take a day or two to sift thru my 20 years of PS.

    pcmacd

  14. #54
    Boolit Buddy Win94ae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayjay1 View Post
    Hello everyobdy,
    like all of us, Iīm loading cast bullets in military rifles (.30-06 in an USM 1917 and the 7,5x55 Swiss in an G11), which means using reduced loads.
    I don't do that... actually, I did it once and didn't feel the risk was worth the trouble. So I load all my cast cartridges use heavy rifle bullets, and regular rifle charges.

    Now I don't have to worry about it at all.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    This is a very old thread that has been hashed out over and over. Call Hodgdon and talk to them. I already have. There is no such thing as a SEE in a firearm. It happens in navel guns. What happens in firearms is called a high pressure excursion. And they told me that they can make it happen on command in a 243Win. It is not aq mystery and they know what causes it. Call them and get the right info. This needs to be put to bed!!!

  16. #56
    Boolit Master dbosman's Avatar
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    For anyone interested in a serious education, the work of Dr. Lloyd Brownell which was published in "Handloader" magazine, makes for interesting read. For those who don't have all the back issues, there was/is an out of print CD publication:
    Firearms Pressure Factors 1st Edition
    by Wolfe Publishing (Author)

    Here is a list of some of the articles.
    he CD book's chapters (including the author(s) and 'Handloader' issue they were published in) are :

    Secondary Explosion Effect (Col. G.O. Ashley, May-Jun '67)
    Pressure Excursions (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Sep-Oct '67)
    Pressure Excursions Explained (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Mar-Apr '68)
    Powder Load (Dr Lloyd Brownell, et. al, Jul-Aug '68)
    Bullet Weight (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Sep-Oct '68)
    Jackets (Dr Lloyd Brownell, et. al., Nov-Dec '68)
    Rifle Barrel (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Jan-Feb '69)
    Gas Leakage (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Mar-Apr '69)
    Seating Depth (Dr Lloyd Brownell, May-Jun '69)
    Freebore (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Jul-Aug '69)
    Powder (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Sep-Oct '69)
    Quickness (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Nov-Dec '69)
    Systems (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Jan-Feb '70)
    Systems Ballistics (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Mar-Apr '70)
    Caliber (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Nov-Dec '70)
    Conclusion (Dr Lloyd Brownell, Mar-Apr '73)
    Venturi Effect (Dr Lloyd Brownell, May-Jun '69)
    Pressure in Revolvers (Bill Caldwell; Sep-Oct '72)
    Modern Pressure Measuring (Dan Pawlak, Nov-Dec '74)
    The Significance Of Muzzle Pressure (Dave Scovill, Sep-Oct '86)
    Adventuring with a Pressure Gun (Wallace Labisky, Jan-Feb '87)

  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master


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    "There is no such thing as a SEE in a firearm. It happens in navel guns. What happens in firearms is called a high pressure excursion."

    Simply renaming something does make it "no such thing". What was referred to and called an S.E.E (Secondary Explosion Effect) in firearms is the same phenomenon now called as a "high pressure excursion". That phenomenon by either name can be readily produced "on demand".
    Larry Gibson

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  18. #58
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a425264.pdf Actual scientific article. Not from gun rags.
    At low pressure burn rate is very slow. At high pressure a 'super burn' condition exists which is the burn rate given in 'bomb' charts. A SEE condition COULD occur IF the change from slow to fast occurs extremely fast - like when the supersonic FLAMMABLE gas exits the muzzle and a shock wave of high pressure is created. Interestingly the article indicates that gas velocity in the 'burn' process is SUBSONIC!
    This is from an OVERCHARGE!Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by popper; 05-28-2020 at 04:06 PM.
    Whatever!

  19. #59
    Boolit Master

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    Call Hodgdon. Not going to argue this anymore. I think they know more about this than ANYONE here.

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The small primer or weak primer and eroded rifle bore is analogous to blowups which were well documented in 105mm howitzer rounds in which WW2-era rounds were handled roughly during transportation, resulting in black powder igniter contained within the booster or flash tube being fractured, causing delayed ignition. Gun failures occurred when such rounds were fired in worn tubes which had seen too many rounds, where the rifling origin was too far advanced.

    Larry may have more info on that, as I have not seen the BRL report in many years. IIRC a small number of weapon failures during the Vietnam era which resulted in fatalities among gun crews prompted an investigation which resulted in protocols for ammunition inspection, accounting of rounds fired and measurement of erosion in gun tubes being made more strict after about 1968.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check