44 mag. 1-38 twist ?

[TXGunNut]

Great thread! Have always wondered about the 1:38 44 Mag rifles. Knowing the history helps...sort of. Seems the slow twist has outlived it's usefulness and we need to move on. Pressure issues with some factory ammo is a bit troublesome, suspect we're stuck with slower twists until that's worked out.

[Shuz]

FWIW--I've had 2/ea Marlin 1894's in .44 mag down thru the years. Both had 1:38" twists. Neither one would shoot as well as my Winnie Trapper with it's 1:16" twist. I currently own 2/ea Marlin 444's. One is a 444S and has a 1:38" twist, and the other is a 444XLR and has a 1:16" twist. The XLR outshoots the 444S hands down, so now the 444S is up for sale! I love Marlin rifles, but not .44 caliber with 1:38" twists!

[MBTcustom]

Throughout the firearm industry/history there are those who have experience with a calculator, and there are those who have experience with making groups on paper. One has groups, and the other has calculations of what should work. Which one you listen to will determine your level of success. Marlin listened to the book smart but rifle stupid people who think Greenhill works, and they have made rifles that shoot 44mag just OK, for half a century. Ruger did too with their 44 carbine, but got wise when they reintroduced it on the Mini14 platform with a faster twist. Winchester biffed it first as well, but now you can buy their Classic 94 in 44 Mag with a fast twist barrel.
Remington is just plain ignorant because they are currently retooling the 1894 line (they said it was shocking that good rifles could actually be made on the worn out equipment they got from Marlin) and they are planning on making them with the original 1-38 twist rate.
It's a perfect time to pull their head from their nether orifice and make the 1894 what it always should have been, but noooooooooo. They're just going to fall into the same old trench, making things exactly wrong. Not a brain in the whole mess of them. Gun people are sheep.
It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they make the 45-70 with 1-20 twist barrels, make the 357 in 1-16, and think that 44 should be 1-38?!?!?!?!?!?
Dipweeds.

357 mag 1894:
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firear...re/1894CSS.asp
45-70 1895:
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firear...re/1895GBL.asp
44 mag 1894:
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firear...rfire/1894.asp

Somebody out there needs a clown nose and Bozo shoes.

[TXGunNut]

I diddled with the Greenhill formula for several hours one weekend and thought I figured out how to modify it to work with CB's. I adjusted "C" to give an answer that agreed with my observations but as we all know a calculator is no match for a rifle and some range time.

[44man]

I diddled with the Greenhill formula for several hours one weekend and thought I figured out how to modify it to work with CB's. I adjusted "C" to give an answer that agreed with my observations but as we all know a calculator is no match for a rifle and some range time.

Yep, change things and you can make it fit what you shoot. But E=MC squared is final.

[herbert buckland]

My experience with fast twist for short bullets has shown me fast twists just will not give me good accuracy ;EG 1 in 16 twist 44 Rusian Ami Sports Spencer had to go to very high velocity before accuracy started to show if I used a longer bullet accuracy started to improve,I re-barrelled it to a 1 in 22 twist but still can not get the accuracy of my original Winchester 1 in 36 twist rifles,had the same problem with a 1in @0 twist 56-50 AS Spencer ,no accuracy with short 350gr bullets started to come good with longer 400gr bullets and was a tack driver with 450gr bullets but the OAL needed for the Spencer cartridge to feed is critical for feeding in the Spencer and the 450gr bullet just took up too powder room so I re-barrelled it to a 1in 36 twist and now get very good accuracy with lighter bullets .I have found if I go by one of the formulars used for BP I can save a lot of lead and powder making loads that work but even these can be improved greatly by load development and trigger time.My experience with fast twist an short fat bullets has proved to me at least that this is a bad idear ,especially if the the cartridge is to go in a rifle that OAL cartridge length is critical

[TXGunNut]

Yep, change things and you can make it fit what you shoot. But E=MC squared is final.

Agreed, the Greenhill Formula is far from an absolute but the guy who came up with it was a lot smarter than I am. I think if he were around today he could whip out his slide rule and come up with the correct factor to use for our boolits. Seems to me I used 120 or 125 but my head hurts to think about it so I won't.
Herbert has a good point as well, I converted a T/C percussion rifle from 45 cal to 54. My research told me to go with a very slow twist if I wanted to shoot balls and I did, so I did. That was before I started pouring lead. Just occurred to me that I might be able to have a little fun with that original barrel if I could find the right mould.....

[44man]

Agreed, the Greenhill Formula is far from an absolute but the guy who came up with it was a lot smarter than I am. I think if he were around today he could whip out his slide rule and come up with the correct factor to use for our boolits. Seems to me I used 120 or 125 but my head hurts to think about it so I won't.
Herbert has a good point as well, I converted a T/C percussion rifle from 45 cal to 54. My research told me to go with a very slow twist if I wanted to shoot balls and I did, so I did. That was before I started pouring lead. Just occurred to me that I might be able to have a little fun with that original barrel if I could find the right mould.....

I don't remember my .54 twist but it is between 1 in 60 and 66. RB of course. Deadly at 200 meters.
BP needs are so different because velocity is very limited. Adding more powder in some will actually slow the velocity. My friend added powder in his Sharps, 34" barrel and compressed in stages until he got 90 gr in the case. They were way slower then 65 gr. The powder just added to boolit weight and much left the long barrel without burning.
We tried Pyrodex with over loads and got plugs blown out to burn in the grass. Looked like Roman candles coming out.
Now I shot BPCR for a long time with a 45-70 with a 1 in 18" twist. Still too slow for the heavy boolits and 500 gr was about right. Browning! The hunting version was 1 in 20" and worked best with around 300 to 350 gr bullets.
Now I shoot the BFR 45-70 with a 1 in 14" rate and it will shoot a huge range of boolits from 300 to 448 gr and will out shoot every rifle to 500 meters. My best group was 2-1/2" at 500.
I hate slow twists for boolits, too many times you just can't get to RPM's. If spin is too fast you can reduce but over spin is only bad at close ranges.
I always said the Marlin .44 was made for a RB.
Anyway to even bring in BP throws the switch the wrong way.

[44man]

I have read a few hundred formulas for twist. Not a single one compares to what we find from actual shooting. Seems all lean to Greenhill and BP.
For revolvers, the most accurate are the BFR's with faster rates. The 475 is 1 in 15" as are the .500's, The DE is 1 in 18" for the .44 and the .44 revolver is 1 in 16".
I think they have it figured out. No other maker has it right. S&W was close in the 29's with 1 in 18-3/4" for the .44. Never seen one that did not shoot. Freedom did great up to the .44 but when they went to larger, they slowed twist, mainly because heavy boolits did not fit.

[Outpost75]

As good as any: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_twist_rule

[6pt-sika]

Over the last 15 years I've owned a pair of Marlin 336-44 rifles , that's a plain old 336 action Marlin chambered for the 44 MAG . Only made these from about 1963-1967 or 68 . Anyway they were ALL Micro Groove and 1-38" . While I had the second one I had Mountain Molds cut me a 432-325GC mold for the 444's . After seeing it do very well in the 444 Micro Groove 1-38" barrels I tried it in the 336-44 and got groups at 100 yards using a 3x scope in the 1.5" to 2.5" range . Now with that being said I was pushing the bullets with a good stout load of H-110 and at 100 yards there was an ever so slight shadow on the bullet holes . Makes me think the load for a 44 MAG in the 1-38 barrels was right on the ragged edge of stabilization at 100 yards .

As to the 1-38" Micro barrels in the 444 Marlin I've owned somewhere around 26 of them over the last 15 years and still have a pair . Anyway I have had 5 molds cut for them that are 375 grains and they did very nicely . However with my WW alloy I needed to water quench so the skin of the bullet was tougher and would grip the rifling a touch better(but that's nothing new as I water quench ALL bullets over 315 grains cast from WW's for use in these 1-38 barrels) , anyway I got all of those molds in the Micro barrels to shoot well enough for hunting use out to 100-150 yards and have used three of them to kill deer or bear already .

[Ramjet-SS]

Henry Big Boy Carbine 1:38 shoots 310 grain with great accuracy upper end hand loads.

Keep in mind a load in a 1:20 or faster will run a higher pressure than the same load in a 1:38 so start low work up.

[44man]

The key is "upper end loads." You run out of powder capacity with the .44 but you also can with the .444 and marlin got so many complaints, they changed the rifling. Needs a light boolit shot fast for both.
Pressure difference between twists is nil.
I worked for a few years with the .44 with much cussing so I called Marlin to see if I could get a 20" twist. I was asked if the gun was still under warranty??? WHAT IS THAT?? You can be the third or fourth owner of a Ruger and get it fixed. But Marlin was 2 years.
Darn, a guy brought a Mossberg here that he plain lost a part when he took it apart. I called and got the part FREE. Got the wrong part, called back and was told, "No problem, another on the way, keep the first part." Rem has smiths all over that will fix your gun free, no matter how old. But I solved the failures to feed by using Wolfe magazine springs.
A friend loaded his Ruger .41 with no powder, stuck a bullet and fired another. Expanded the cylinder, drove the pin down and top strap up without breaking any steel. Ruger sold him a new one at cost.
As much as I love Marlins, their warranty sucks. I hope Rem is better. I have a Remlin 30-30 and love it. If they keep the 1 in 38" twist I will not buy another.

[Ramjet-SS]

Nil? I disagree that's like saying chamber deminsion have nil effect. We will have to just agree to disagree. "best twist" subject and impacted by many many factors and application.

Henry shoots 310 grainers accurately that's a fact that's all I care.

[44man]

Have you measured pressures between twist rates. Can you show 310 gr boolit groups at 100 yards?
I bet I can set a pop can at 100 and you will run a box of 100 rounds and not hit it.
A .44 needs 47,376 rpms but even at 1800 fps from a rifle you only get 28,421 rpms from 1 in 38". I can tell you never watched boolits go down range with a scope.

[Ramjet-SS]

I will load up some and post the target for you and frankly I am not going to try and argue with the sites self appointed "know it all" ..... its like sticking a red hot ice pick in your own temple. Just not worth the effort. oh by the way look up the definition of friction if you need help understanding it read it again........

[MBTcustom]

Groups trump all Ramjet-SS. I believe that and live by it.
I very much want to see your groups.
I can't do what you claim (although I do love that 310 gr bullet).

[Ramjet-SS]

I will post them but have to size lube and load some ammo between work and play it may take a couple of days.

[hpdrifter]

For those that say 1-38 works; you can have my share.

[MBTcustom]

I will post them but have to size lube and load some ammo between work and play it may take a couple of days.

Always does. I just got done turning a bunch of ammo into empty brass last night myself. They say "easy come, easy go" and that's true except for the first part. LOL! It's still worth it though.