? pewter mostly tin, how much to add to dead soft lead to equal or better WW

[MBTcustom]

yeah, a lot!!!
tin won't water quench harden
antimony does.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^bingo^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Another thing that I think might be worth considering is that different alloys engrave differently, and may ride the barrel better or worse, regardless of whether they are harder or not. Hardness isn't everything (although it's one of the few things we can actually MEASURE). I suspect that having the RIGHT hardness is key to a good shooting bullet. ie: hard with what alloy?

For instance, I was shooting 30XCB @ 2650 FPS. One alloy was Linotype at 27BHN. The other was House alloy at 27BHN. House alloy shot better. If hardness is the only consideration, then why were they not identical?
In contrast, when you get on up to 3000FPS, the Linotype tends to shoot better and House alloy falls behind.

It's not just about having hard bullets. It's about having the right hardness with the right alloy, and when you start looking for accuracy, that applies to everything from 45ACP to 300 Win Mag.
Just my opinion.

[kens]

Tim,
you answered my question specifically, thanks.
Now, how do we go about identifying our alloy(s) in the garage, with our garage equipment?
Does antimony alloy ALWAYS look frosted, grainy, crystallin?
does a tin alloy ALWAYS look shiny, bright, silver?

How can we arrive at a method to identify tin vs antimony alloy hardness?

[jonp]

Water quenching to increase hardness was not the op's original question i think?

[jonp]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^bingo^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Another thing that I think might be worth considering is that different alloys engrave differently, and may ride the barrel better or worse, regardless of whether they are harder or not. Hardness isn't everything (although it's one of the few things we can actually MEASURE). I suspect that having the RIGHT hardness is key to a good shooting bullet. ie: hard with what alloy?

For instance, I was shooting 30XCB @ 2650 FPS. One alloy was Linotype at 27BHN. The other was House alloy at 27BHN. House alloy shot better. If hardness is the only consideration, then why were they not identical?
In contrast, when you get on up to 3000FPS, the Linotype tends to shoot better and House alloy falls behind.

It's not just about having hard bullets. It's about having the right hardness with the right alloy, and when you start looking for accuracy, that applies to everything from 45ACP to 300 Win Mag.
Just my opinion.

Thats interesting. I was under the impression the bhn was the over riding factor. How you got there was not as long as standard boolit melt like pb, tin, etc was used. I undersrand the difference between hardness and brittleness but with lead alloy did not think it made a difference in, say, 20:1 and COWW

[MBTcustom]

Thats interesting. I was under the impression the bhn was the over riding factor. How you got there was not as long as standard boolit melt like pb, tin, etc was used. I undersrand the difference between hardness and brittleness but with lead alloy did not think it made a difference in, say, 20:1 and COWW

That's pretty much true, but there are times when tin just cannot give you what antimony does, and neither can give you what a harmonious blend of the two within the bullet metal can.
That said, I have shot many bullets made of lead and tin, and lead and antimony, but I cannot claim that I did every combination extensively, so I can't take a hard stand on anything.
All I know is that there is an exception to every rule, because the things we apply simple rules to are much more complex than the rules allow for.
I realize now that the OP was only asking how to make a tin/lead alloy as hard as air cooled COWW, probably for low velocity pistol or 300BLK, and in that situation it doesn't matter.

[runfiverun]

you have to remember that Tin is actually a different animal when it is in a lead alloy.
it adds hardness at a much lesser rate than antimony does, but it also affects the alloy differently.
when you bend that piece of pewter listening for the creak and pop sounds what you are hearing is the tin nodules actually pulling apart because they don't have the flexibility to stretch and side.

antimony by itself in a lead alloy acts much differently than it does when in the presence of tin
it actually allows the lead to slide and glide over itself much more fluidly without the brittleness usually associated with it.
now when the amount of antimony gets up in the 6% range and over then things start to change, but things change with the amount of tin in the alloy also.
if you have less than @.4% tin it changes from being a surface wetting agent [breaks through the surface of the poured alloy allowing the antimonial/lead matrix to flow better] in the alloy, to a grain refining agent affecting the internal composition of the alloy.

if you want to tell the difference between an all tin alloy and one bearing antimony drop the melted and slightly cooled alloy in water.
the precipitation cooling will affect the antimonial alloy and not the tin alloy nor a pure lead alloy.
if the antimony percentage is low like 1-2% it will take more time for the full bhn to be realized.