Brush Defense Long gun Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun or 870 12ga

[huntersdog]

What long gun do you use for brush or wood defense, against bears, wolves, Moose? 45-70 or 12ga slugs.

[GoodOlBoy]

don't get me wrong ain't nothing wrong with a good 12 gauge slug gun. But 45-70 would be my preference between the two.

GoodOlBoy

[ReloaderFred]

Both are good, but I chose the .45-70, since it gives you a little more range, if needed.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Geezer in NH]

Defense give it a break, a 12ga Brenneke beats at 45/70 hands down, power there you go. At self defense range of 10 yards good luck with the 45'70

[Old Coot]

Assuming that you have sufficient power and penetration to break bones and interrupt the central nervous system (brain, spinal cord) it make more difference where you hit them than what you hit them with. You shoot a bear in the *** or gut with a 50 barrett and all you've got is a more pissed off bear. If you are a good enough point or instinctive shooter with an 870 use it. Second shots (and if you get that you will be lucky) will be much faster, but you have to practice, practice, practice. Brodie

[longbow]

Yup "12ga Brenneke beats at 45/70 hands down" but you have to be using the right 12 ga. slug. A typical Foster slug would not be my choice! You need a Brenneke, Gualandi DGS or similar for smoothbore or something like the Dixie Terminator if rifled (you didn't say). Alternately Dixie Tri-Ball loads should also be very good bear medicine for smoothbore.

With a hard cast dangerous game slug (or Tri-Ball) I would go with the 12 ga. If your choice is soft Foster slugs (standard rifled slug loads) you are way better off with the .45-70... loaded with at least 405 gr. flatpoints.

Either will do it with the right ammunition but my vote goes to the 12 ga. with the right ammunition for close up encounters.
YMMV

Longbow

[huntersdog]

Here's and interesting thread on this subject, plus an Alaskan Brown Bear shot. I'm not looking to fend off Browns.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...Slugs_on_Bears

[GoodOlBoy]

#1 the knock-down power of a 45-70 OR a 12 gauge at 10 yards is staggering. to say that EITHER at that range would be ineffective is disingenuous at best.

#2 When walking the woods if I let a hog, a coyote, a wolf, a bear, ANYTHING get to within 10 yards I am already in deep DEEP trouble. The whole point of me carrying a long gun in the woods, when it's not hunting season, is to intercept trouble BEFORE it gets that close.

I won't even get into the long range argument as the 12 gauge is automatically not my gun of choice at long range. I will also add that of the times I have been charged by anything while in the woods more than half of the time a warning shot into the ground in front of their nose is more than enough to put an end to mischief. Honestly registered bulls (IE expensive) are more of a problem in these parts than the wildlife is, and they pay just as much attention to fences as deer do. The single exception for me would be feral hogs who you had best put down, climb a tree, or both. Now that doesn't mean I will let a coyote, wolf, or wildcat "get away" from me if I can help it. Bears I don't have alot of experience with, because in east Texas we rarely see Louisiana Black bears wandering in, and they were protected last time I knew anything about them. Which means I will kill one to save a life (including mine), but otherwise it's time to warn them off and hope they catch the drift on the first shot. The second shot is never a warning.

GoodOlBoy

[Geezer in NH]

Self defense is up close, further away is NOT self defense. Try killing something claiming self defense at100-150 yard prepare to pay a very big fine and possibly jail time because you will be unable to claim self defense and have that stick in court.

I love the Marlin 45-70 bought one when they first made it but I will stick with a 12 ga and Brenekkee slug for up close and personal.

[Blackwater]

I've never shot a bear, but if I ever did, my big concern would be the bullets. Some of the J-bullets for .45/70 particularly, are mighty soft if one heats up the loading any, and thus, may not penetrate well enough on some angles that might present themselves, and in a defensive situation I'll ALWAYS be concerned about penetration. A nice, short gun comes in mighty handy at close range, too, like the Guide Gun. All this would go for hog hunting, too, since they can grow rather large and can be, if shot placement isn't great, quite tough as well. Specifically for bears, I think I'd "invest" in some of the good "premium" and semi-custom bullets like Hawk or maybe Woodleigh. Thank heaven, I've only seen a bear attack on camera, but anyone who's been in the woods much can get a pretty good general idea how short an amount of time you'd have to do whatever you can do, and some bears do NOT just charge to scare you. Too many maulings to think that, and those that count on being lucky often just plain aren't.

In 12-ga., I believe I'd go with one of the solid copper slugs to ensure penetration. A good semi-auto or pump, or even a double would have lots to recommend them, but I'd be very sure it had the right dimensions of length, drop, etc. so that it mounted really well and very consistently. FWIW?

[JSnover]

At that distance I'd go with the shorter/lighter of the two to get on target Right NOW. Either would work. After my nerves settled I could wonder what would have happened if I had brought the other gun.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I will also clarify my12 guage preference. I would load a WW round ball and not depend on a hollow factory slug. I did some tests years ago having found out a standard factory slug would not penetrate the upper neck armor of large crocodiles at 5 feet. Tests showed a round ball will out penetrate a standard slug by about 3 times... In a survival role I want all the smashing penetration I can get. A caliber .735 or .685 RB at 1500 fps is going to produce far more "wack" on target. Granted I will only have 50 yards of good accuracy but if the critter is more than 50 yards I think it is not yet a threat. Should it decided to charge then I am confident my RB loads will be up to the task.
Mike in Peru

[lancem]

Don't have to worry much about bears here, though there are some, but I was thinking about the math. I believe I read a black bear, or probably any of them can hit 30 MPH, that's 44 FPS. And from what I've seen they get up to speed real fast. At 50 yards if the bear is at full charge you have 3.4 seconds to react and put him down. Any of you thinking of this scenario at 10 yards, well I think you're dead men no matter what you are carrying.

[starmac]

I think either will do any defensive task, I carry a 45/70, not because it is any better than a 12 gauge, but I shoot a lever action much more than I do a pump. God forbid I ever have to deal with a mad griz at any range we can legally call self defense even stretched a mite, I would be more comfortable with the 45/70 coming into position and getting a shot off than I would a shotgun.

[Keyston44]

At self defense range I would use my 12 gauge over my 45-70. Because my 12 gauge hold 7 rounds and my 45-70 Guide Gun only holds 4.

Key

[dkf]

I'll pass on both and go with a .458socom AR. Preferably loaded with some hardcast or brass solids.

[GoodOlBoy]

The argument that self defense only happens up close is crazy. If you have a critter charging you from 50 to 100 yards out and a warning shot doesn't deter them you are well within your rights to DEFEND YOURSELF by shooting it. You know why? Because unless you are Jesse Owens or his offspring you ain't outrunning a charging NOTHING, and MOST of the critters listed can close that distance before you can do much more than dirty a set of drawers and chamber a second round.

GoodOlBoy

[huntersdog]

Or having to go into the bush to kill a wounded animal, I think in that case a 45-70 would be better if the critter gets up an keep moving, the 45-70 has some range.

[Artful]

I would use my 870 over my Marlin 45-70, - holds more rounds, has bigger diameter & heavier projectile, I can operate the slide faster then the lever (YMMV), Holds more rounds on tap and it's easier to load (few years of 3 gun game under my belt with the 870). Defensive means your reacting to something that on the offensive already, not going to be at 10 yards may be further but I've hit man size targets at over 200 yds with 870 w/ slugs and I feel confident it would be my best defensive choice.

[TXGunNut]

Either, as long as you do some up close & personal drills with it and are comfortable with it and your loads. I'm very familiar and comfortable with a good riot gun but I'm also pretty quick with my Guide Gun and feel very confident in my ammo. Then again we have very few bears here in TX, a wolf or moose would be an almost impossible encounter here in TX. My few trips into bear and big cat country were hiking trips with big bore handguns because I didn't want to attract attention with (or carry) a long gun.