45-70 w/5744 & 480gr boolit

[pjames32]

I have some cast 480gr (NOE) boolits for my 45-70. I want a mild recoiling load for my Rolling Block. Accurate lists a minimum load for a 460gr boolit of 27.5gr and a 500gr boolit minimum of 25.2gr. My question-has anyone gone lower and what were your results? I have used 25.0gr with my 350gr boolits and with my 405gr. boolits.
Thanks for your input.
PJ

[Don McDowell]

Does the barrel say blackpowder only?
Here's something else you may want to think about before you look up load data for that powder and bullet.
Well we had another rifle blow up at the Quigley yesterday. A guy was shooting a .45-70 Pedersoli with smokeless powder. I don't know the load particulars other then he was using AA-5744.
Doc. Lay was on the seen again taking care of him till the ambulance came.
I have pictures of the rifle but cant post them right now. The action held but the barrel split top and bottom and they found the forearm 50 some feet away.
He had mayor damage to his hand.

[pjames32]

Don-my rifle does not say black powder only. Was the blow up on a black powder only gun?
Thx
PJ

[Don McDowell]

Don't know any more than it was a Pedersoli 74 sharps.

[Lowpower]

Which raises the question and not to infuriate BP folks....

If one shoots low load of smokeless which pushed the bullet out the barrel at 1129 fps, I would think the pressures are down in the 18k psi range. All pressures being equal what are the chances for a blowout in an older rifle?

New kid on the block here shooting big bore, slow moving freight trains out yonder who would really like to know if it's safe or not. I have been shooting 550 gr bullets behind 24.0 gr of H4198 in a very old rifle. Read really really old rifle, here.

It also raises the question the Browning 1885 High Wall in .45-70 has BR recommended on my barrel. The rifle was built in 1997. Will it not handle low pressure loads of H4198?

Thanks
Lp

[Don McDowell]

Real blackpowder in a 45-70 only runs around 15000 CUP.
Look at the barrel on your Browning again, it says Black Powder Only.

[country gent]

Also keep in mind while the smokeless duplication loads of black powder loads may be the same basic pressures they may not be close as to actual pressure curve produced.

[Lowpower]

If you gents don't mind my continuing to ask questions I still have some....
I will look at the barrel again as I could have sworn it said recommended. I'm at work but will check and reply in the morning.
In my .45-70 Browning 1885 I expanding the neck just enough to hand press the bullet into the case. The lube puts tension used to hold the bullet in the case. In fact, I load it approx half way into the case and let the lands push the bullet back into the case only as far as it wants to. Does a crimp effect the actual pressure curve by allowing it build pressure up prior to releasing the bullet from it's grasp?

And now for a sacrilegious question...my original 1859 Sharps .45-100 is the rifle that is shooting those 550 gr bullets behind 24 gr of H4198. I've put a couple of hundred rounds through it using the same method of seating the bullet using just my fingers. Am I tempting fate by doing so? I ask because loading 100 gr of FFG through a 30 inch drop tube to let the powder settle sure puts a heck of a lot more kick into that 11.5 lb rifle than using 24.0 gr of H4198. Which raises the next question... if it is tempting fate how do I load down a charge of FFG to lighten the recoil without effecting accuracy. Right now the 1885 is shooting .5 MOA at 100 yds with 520 gr bullets behind 24 gr H4198 and the Sharps is shooting .750 at 100 yds behind the same charge. The 1885 has a 6x MVA William Malcolm 28" scope on it. The Sharps has a an old Winchester mid-range tang sight and windage adjustable front globe sight w/spirit level.

I continue to hear two sides of BP vs Smokeless arguments concerning safety and I'm having a hard time coming to any conclusion. I have yet to see a rifle blow up using smokeless. Yet, I don't want to be the proverbial first kid on the block to have it happen to me.

I bought some cornmeal to use as a filler. I have no idea where to start at regarding BP. 45 gr then a wad then filler then a wad under the bullet? I heard about a duplex load, like 5 gr of some medium burning smokeless under the main charge of like 45 gr then add the filler? I'm not even sure if there needs to be paper wads between any off it. No one around here does much with BP. They all do smokeless.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Don, I would like to see pics of the rifle if you have them.

Bob aka Lp

[Don McDowell]

Don't have any pics, will have to wait and see if any get sent down..
Smokeless in an original Sharps?? Would check with your homeowners policy before taking that to a public place. Well built rifles, but well over 100 years old.. Steel/iron only lasts for so long.

[country gent]

The one issue with a fine grained filler like cream of wheats, corn meal or grits may be the migration of the filler into the powder charge "diluting it" in a way. A paper wad will prevent this. Like wise a cardboard wad on top protects the soft base of the bullet from the hard grains of the filler. Never just add a filler to an existing load always start over and work up with it. It does in effect add to the weight of the projectile being launched. I personaly perfer Black Powder loads in my rifles just seems more traditional and right to me. Im not saying it cant be done and isnt safe just my personal choice. Its also satisfying to go out with truely ( at least as close as possible with modern components) tradition loads in these old rifles and perform to the same levels as the new fangled stuf. LOL

[rfd]

there was that lady at the quigley years ago who's roller blew ... iirc, that was a smokeless load, too.

nonetheless, it's all speculation until the facts come out.

fwiw, don't know of a pedersoli sharps or roller that's bp only - they are all spec'd for at least some form of smokeless, and aa5744 is a powder designed for such rifles. again, the facts will tell the true tale.

imho, and for more than a few reasons, white powder is just more critical in the loading than black.

[Don McDowell]

Wasn't a roller it was a Ballard, and it was about 3 years ago, and then as now the powder was 5744.

[Red River Rick]

don't know of a pedersoli sharps or roller that's bp only - they are all spec'd for at least some form of smokeless, and aa5744 is a powder designed for such rifles. again, the facts will tell the true tale.

imho, and for more than a few reasons, white powder is just more critical in the loading than black.

You need to take a closer look at some of the newer Pedersoli Sharps rifles..............they all have "Black Powder Cartridge Only" stamped on the bottom of their barrels.

Mine does, and it was made in 2007.

RRR

[Don McDowell]

Don't know the charge weight, but the shooter was apparently one of those that thought a wad on top of 5744 was the proper way to go. The barrel split right down the top and bottom flat, taking the leverspring and mounting block, right out the bottom of the forestock. Case is still in the chamber, looks like it's been opened up like flower petals. Action looks to be fine, but the splits in the barrel sure look to go into the threaded shank.

[Lowpower]

Ya'll are making me want to sell off my Sharps! I don't want a gun I can't shoot.

[Don McDowell]

Why can't you shoot it? Just load it with black, the powder it was built for.

[Lowpower]

Sorry Don, I was thinking of your comment about it being over 100 years old...but you were talking about smokeless not BP. So, it's fine to shoot with BP? Up to 100 gr?

I'm out of work and heading for the house. If it's alright with you I'd like to continue in the AM.

Thanks
Bob

[Don McDowell]

If it's a 2.6, you can get by with a lot less than 100 grs of powder. Especially if it's 1f.. Sleep tight, don't let the bedbugs bite.

[big bore 99]

I've read that 5744 is a high nitro content powder. Wish I could find some locally and have used quite a bit of it. When working up loads, I spoke with an Accurate factory rep and he said never use any kind of wad or filler of any kind with it. It may burn a little dirty, but he said to do a little crimp.

[Don McDowell]

I buy it in the 8lb jugs, but use it mostly in leverguns.