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Thread: Aluminating

  1. #1
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    Aluminating

    I'm new to gas checks, and have a question. ...uh oh

    I know that gas checks are to prevent leading, we used to use copper, but it's too expensive so we use aluminum. I know how to remove copper deposits, I know how to remove leading, but what about aluminum deposits? Instead of lead leading the bore, does the aluminum start aluminating the bore.

    How do you clean it?

    If you use steel to make the gas checks, is that going to cause steeling?

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy elwood4884's Avatar
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    Bullet, You would deal with aluminum deposits the same way you would handle copper deposits. A bore brush and solvent should get your barrel clean.

    In regards to steel. Steel would not make for a good gas check. Steel will not seat well on lead bullets in a press. Steel checks also could cause early barrel erosion because they would be softer than the steel of the barrel.
    John

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    Yeah, I stay away from steel. I've heard of a couple guys using it, but I dont even like steel jackets.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Question

    BF, Are there any documented cases of bore fouling attributable to "copper" (gilding metal) gas checks? Moreover, aluminum gas checks have been in use for at least a half a dozen years, yet I've seen no articles which actually demonstrate bore fouling. (Lots of discussion, but no evidence presented.) If there's proof, don't hide your light under a bushel.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Yodogsandman's Avatar
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    There was some discussion very recently on copper fouling from the use of copper gas checks over on the "XCB project. Throat results: 2000+ rounds of HV cast lead = what?", post#12 in the "Cast Boolits" forum. Larry Gibson describes how he got blue patches when cleaning after his shooting HV XCB boolits.

    I asked the same question about the use of aluminum gas checks and was told that there are no known cases of aluminum fouling. How would you ever know if you got aluminum fouling? Besides the drop in accuracy, is there any indications...like green patches from copper?
    Last edited by Yodogsandman; 06-04-2015 at 08:57 AM.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master 35 shooter's Avatar
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    I've never heard of a way to detect al. fouling(if there is any) in a bbl. I have been using al. checks exclusively for 2 years now and usually just patch out when cleaning and rarely use a brush at all. I've tried to shine a light across the rifling in the end of the bbl. at various angles to try and detect any trace of al. check fouling from time to time and have never seen any off color or streaking on the lands after patching out.

    I have had antimony wash in the bbl. before from shooting straight ww alloy, but i get that with plain base ww boolits too and has nothing to do with the al. gas checks.
    If they foul the bore at all, i can't tell it. Kind of makes sense the al. would leave a little something in the bore just like copper, but if so, it must just patch out as i rarely use a brush and don't get any kind of build up or loss of accuracy.

  7. #7
    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    +1 on what Maven said.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    + 1 on what Maven said.

    I started out with a pair of Mosin's, dark bores, lots of green on the patches. Over the summer shooting lead with copper gas checks slowly the bore cleaned up, and slowly the patches stopped showing green.

    I see a little bit of lead on the patches, dark oxidized lead. Not enough to be visible in the grooves, but a little always shows up. But no more copper.

    My only concern with Aluminum is that aluminum oxide (Alum that has gone dull, on being exposed to the air)
    is one of the harder substances. A lot of sandpaper is made of Aluminum Oxide. That being said I would not be overly concerned shooting aluminum gas checks. Might polish the barrel a bit.

    Up till now I've found it easier to buy copper gas checks either from a good retailer or from those people here who make and sell them. Just one less thing to worry about.

    I'm pretty sure at some point I will end up investing in at least .30 cal gas check maker.
    To each his own, we each have to have something to worry about.
    We each make our own choices.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maven View Post
    BF, Are there any documented cases of bore fouling attributable to "copper" (gilding metal) gas checks? Moreover, aluminum gas checks have been in use for at least a half a dozen years, yet I've seen no articles which actually demonstrate bore fouling. (Lots of discussion, but no evidence presented.) If there's proof, don't hide your light under a bushel.
    I love your light under a bushel analogy, God bless you sir.

    Truthfully, I meant the thread as a gag, hoping some of us could get a laugh about it. "aluminating" ...the word made me grin. Once Elwood posted however, I thought that maybe there was a such thing, and I had something to learn, so I shut up for a minute. I quoted him below for clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by elwood4884 View Post
    Bullet, You would deal with aluminum deposits the same way you would handle copper deposits. A bore brush and solvent should get your barrel clean.

    In regards to steel. Steel would not make for a good gas check. Steel will not seat well on lead bullets in a press. Steel checks also could cause early barrel erosion because they would be softer than the steel of the barrel.

  10. #10
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    I only use copper gc's, I don't want to worry about "galling" with aluminum, and I have no experience with them, but if they did "gall" you would have a hell of a time getting it out.

  11. #11
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    BulletFactory: I have never seen anything against the aluminum gas checks other than those that claim you are shooting aluminum oxide down your barrel and will destroy it. When I started making aluminum gas checks, prior to offering them, I shot literally thousands of 358156 aluminum gas checked boolits through my Ruger Black Hawk, both regular and "HOT" loads. That was years ago, and to this day you will find no aluminum deposits NOR wear in my barrel. They are a much cheaper alternative to the copper/brass gas checks, and do what they are intended for. I personally don't worry about the "Aluminum Oxide Theory" as I can find NO evidence of barrel wear, nor have I ever found nor noticed any aluminum build up. I shoot 3 38/357's, 44 Magnum's, and 45LC's and none of them have suffered at all from my aluminum gas checked boolits.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master JMax's Avatar
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    We need to think about aluminum oxide used a an abrasive and what is present on a gas check. Oxide on a gas check is probably less than a micron ( millionth of a meter) on the surface of aluminum that is probably ten thou or more in thickness resulting in a soft base. Remember that oxide thickness follows the diffusion equation where the oxide (diffusion) thickness is a square root function of the product of the diffusion constant, time and Arrenius temperature acceleration. Room temperature storage results in very slow oxide growth and is the reason that I have no worries in using Al gas checks.

    We need to remember abrasives use much thicker grains of aluminum oxide that are very hard and have no soft center and because of those characteristics make great abrasives.

  13. #13
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    How did we get from Aliminating to Oxide? Have I been negligent in making all those hundreds of thousands Aliminating checks?



    Quote Originally Posted by BulletFactory View Post
    I'm new to gas checks, and have a question. ...uh oh

    I know that gas checks are to prevent leading, we used to use copper, but it's too expensive so we use aluminum. I know how to remove copper deposits, I know how to remove leading, but what about aluminum deposits? Instead of lead leading the bore, does the aluminum start aluminating the bore.

    How do you clean it?

    If you use steel to make the gas checks, is that going to cause steeling?

  14. #14
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    You have alot of gall.

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    BF,

    I took is just like you intended TPFIC especially when I saw "steeling". Must be my sick since of humor as it did not even occur to me this was an "aluminating" subject.
    Steve,

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Chambers View Post
    You have alot of gall.

    Hahahahaha good one


    Quote Originally Posted by Minerat View Post
    BF,

    I took is just like you intended TPFIC especially when I saw "steeling". Must be my sick since of humor as it did not even occur to me this was an "aluminating" subject.
    Lol. I thought surely the "steeling" word would give it up.

  17. #17
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    Why should steel gas check cause more erosion than steel jackets of which billions have been fired through gun barrels? Use a soft iron such as used in "steel shot" and for driving bands in artillery shells.

  18. #18
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    My opinion is that gas checks function as 'scraper rings' to remove lead smears after they happen. Just like in auto engines. We have used aluminum piston rings in autos for years and a piston makes more passes up and down a cylinder bore than we will ever shoot through a rifle.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAGTIC View Post
    Why should steel gas check cause more erosion than steel jackets of which billions have been fired through gun barrels? Use a soft iron such as used in "steel shot" and for driving bands in artillery shells.
    It's my opinion that they wouldn't, but I have a pretty good supply of copper ones, and a preference for reverting to aluminium ones, before I have to find out. For anyone interested in experimenting, electromagnet cores built up from thin sheets are about the only sure source of thin soft iron sheet I know. Transformers etc. might use steel, since they don't have to switch off and drop things.

    I think alumni are more likely to be aluminated than a barrel. I think lead, copper and cupro-nickel fouling are soldered into the bore surface by friction-induced heat - and are therefore worst if a poor seal causes atomized metal to be blasted ahead of the bullet through the grooves. Look at how difficult aluminium is to solder, when you want to do it. I think it takes far more copper checks than copper jackets to foul a bore, although the likelihood that velocity will be lower makes this hard to quantify. But I think aluminium would be, if anything, better in this respect. Possibly it does leave metal behind, with a degree of adhesion following bullets or a brush loosen, as used to be thought of tinned cupro-nickel.

    All aluminium, when cut, develops an almost instantaneous protective coating of oxide. Some scientific experiments, and accidents, show this. Some years back a lot of French teenagers were killed in a disco fire, caused by decorating the hall with foil offcuts from a local factory. But I don't believe this coating (unlike anodizing, probably) is enough to wear a bore. I have always thought that 5/16in. anodized aluminium rod, or 8mm. for an oversized bore, might be a superior alternative to fire-lapping.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAGTIC View Post
    Why should steel gas check cause more erosion than steel jackets of which billions have been fired through gun barrels? Use a soft iron such as used in "steel shot" and for driving bands in artillery shells.
    Militaries can replace worn barrels easier than we can.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check