A few questions before I gear up?

[PepeLapiu]

Okay guys.
I got my Load-all
I have collected and turned into 1 lb ingots about 100 lbs of scrap lead from scrapped roofing lead hats.
I've started collecting range hulls. Mainly Remington Slugger hulls and Fiocchi slug hulls and a few Winchester slug hulls.
Will be getting a BPI roll crimper.
Got my Lee 7/8 slug mold yesterday.

Now, according to Lee here is the best load data for the components available to me.

Hull
Federal Gold Medal

Primer
Fed 209A

Wad
Federal 12S0

Powder
Hodgson Universal 30 gr or Hodgson HS6 42 gr

Velocity
1550 fps

Now, I can gather up just about every component listed above, spare the Federal Gold Premium hulls.
So I plan on trying the load recipe above with 10% less powder and substitute the Fed Gold Premium hulls for my Remington Slugger or Fiocchi slug hulls.

Now how do I know if the load is working out?
How do I know if I can try to increase or decrease the powder load?

I read about other guys talking about the pressure. Wouldn't I need some fancy expensive ballistic equipments to calculate the pressure?

Is there something I should look for when the pressure is getting too high or two low?

[longbow]

Yes, you need fancy expensive ballistic equipment to know the pressure. Use published load recipes with all the same components.

Shotshell loading is not like metallic cartridge reloading in that you can easily work up a load by starting low and gradually working up until you see flattened primers or sticky bolt.

Shotshell reloading is a bit different and what seem like minor changes or substitutions can change pressures dramatically.

Primers and hulls are the critical components and a change in either can raise or lower pressures by 3000 or so PSI. Just because a primer is a "209" does not mean it is the same as another brand of 209. My reloading manuals warn that a simple change of brand of 209 primer can result in pressure change of up to 3000 PSI. Also there is a significant difference in hull design and a compression formed hull has a much smaller and shaped combustion volume than a large capacity straight walled hull.

Not saying that substitutions cannot be made but you do not want to venture into that territory without some experience and knowledge.

Start out using published load recipes with all components as listed and see how it goes. If accuracy isn't there then try another load recipe. You cannot safely swap components randomly.

Get yourself several reloading manuals so you have some options. If you cannot get the components listed in one then you may find something more obtainable in another. I have three editions of the Lyman Shotshell Reloading manuals, Reloading For Shotgunners (this one shows several powders charges and pressure for each combination of components) and load recipes from several powder manufacturers along with published loads from BPI (look up their "Load OF The Week"), magazine articles and other published load recipes.

My advice anyway.

Longbow

[PepeLapiu]

Well, I have a rather sticky situation here.
Getting new shells from BPI would be cost prohibitive as I don't live in the USA (I know, a non-murican gun owner, hard to believe).

So the shells I was able to find are basically what my gun range saves for me. Mostly Winchester, Remy, or Fiocchi hulls (all from factory slug loads).

Than comes the powder supply. If you think you got it bad in the USA, try and find powders here in Canada.

And honestly, for my Lee slugs and those hulls, I simply can't find any load data.
The closest I could find is from Lee as per the recipe above. But Lee warns that if a component is substituted, a 10% decrease in powder should be used.

I would assume a load with 36 grains of powder instead of the listed 40 grains should be pretty safe, no?

What do you think if I swap only the hull in the recipe and see how that shoots? And if the results are good, I could always send a few shells to a ballistic lab and see what the pressure is. It just might be tricky to ship ammo out if Canada and into the USA, even if it's only a few shells.

What kind of pressure should I be looking for with two pump 12 gauge guns anyways? A Mossberg 590A1 18 inch and a Grizzly Mag 12 inch. Both with smooth bore.
I'm guessing the 590 could probably take more pressure as it's got a heavier barrel.

And yes, with my first order from BPI, I intend to get a few reloading manuals.

[longbow]

I live in Canada too so feel your pain.

New hulls can be had from Bilozir Fine Guns in Alberta. In fact I have an order to complete with Will so I can get some more supplies. Hulls run about $15.00/100 so not expensive.

You can inspect hulls and for the most part large volume straight walled hulls should be similar. What you do not want to do is use a compression formed hull style like Win AA when a load recipe calls for a straight walled hull like Federal Gold Medal or Fiocchi. I have used Fiocchi a lot with good success.

If you don't know, an easy way to make up slug loads is to use an equivalent weight slug and replace a shot load. They are not generally as high velocity as a dedicated slug load but they will work and are safe. There are many, many more component combinations listed in manuals for shot recipes than slug recipes.

And again, BPI's "Load Of The Week" is full of high performance shot and slug loads using different recipes (generally) than you will find in manuals.

BPI also sells load data sheets quite inexpensively and they can have some good variety as well.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/loa...eekarchive.htm

Granted, they tend to use their own products but they do list many high performance recipes for lightweight shot loads which you could sub your 7/8 oz. slug for.

As for pressure, SAAMI specs apply:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/209.pdf

Page 8 lists pressures and it looks like 12,100 PSI is the limit for 12 ga.

Now, I tend to err on the side of caution. Some published load recipes are a little vague (Lee sometimes being like that). I have one pressure tested slug load that states to use "any straight walled hull" and does not specify primer. They did list several powder charges and top end pressure. I used their starting load and went up about two increments then found recoil was objectionable so I never approached their top end load.

When using "Reloading For Shotgunners" which generally lists several powder charges and pressures with each set of components I do not hesitate to substitute even primers if I am working with a load of 8000 PSI as there is lots of room for pressure increase. However, I stay away from substitutions in recipes that are running 10,500 or 11,000 PSI as there is no room for error upward in pressure.

Shotshell reloading can be quite confusing and frustrating due to the variety of components available and lack of standardization. For the most part hulls and primers are the issue. Just because two different brands of hulls are compression formed or straight walled does not mean they are the same and load recipes reflect that.

Primers though are the one that gets me going. Most are "209" but Federal 209's are "hotter" than Win 209 in that pressures rise if substituting Federal primers. There is some information on the internet about this but it is not listed or discussed in any loading manual I have ~ just comments like "Do not substitute primers...".

Tom Armbrust who does pressure testing wrote an article regarding pressures and different primers here:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

The short story is do not stray far from published recipes to be safe. I am sure you can find shot recipes using 7/8 oz. that you can sub your slug for if you cannot find actual slug load recipes for the components you have or can get.

Longbow

[FullTang]

You can also substitute Federal Top Gun hulls in any Gold Medal recipe, and it should work just fine. Pressures and velocities are always very slightly less with TG vs GM, and the TG has slightly less height available, but they are generally interchangeable, and the Top Gun hulls are much easier to find. Around here you can buy bulk target ammo at Wal Mart, and that's what you'll get---not sure if that's true in Canada, though.

[longbow]

We see a lot of Federal Field Hulls but they have the fiber basewad in them. They are a straight walled hull though. I have been using once fired pick ups of those lately. From load data I have they are definitely different than the Gold Medal hulls. Can't say I have seen Top Gun hulls.

[FullTang]

I've never reloaded Federal Field hulls, but the Federal web site and the Alliant manual both say they are identical to Top Guns for reloading purposes, as are all Fed plastic 2-3/4" paper basewad type hulls. If you look at the Hodgdon web site, you won't find any Lee slug loads, but you will find Universal loads for Fed GM hulls, and others for "Federal Hi-Power Plastic hulls w/fiber base wads", which includes all hulls of this type. If you compare the loads, you'll see that the GM loads use slightly less Universal to get the same velocity, but run somewhat higher pressures (probably because of slightly thicker side walls). In other words, if you put the same charge of powder listed for a Gold Medal hull into a Top Gun or Federal Field hull, you'll get slightly lower velocity and pressure. Since 1-1/8 oz loads with Universal only run around 9400 psi with 26.5 grains, 30 grains driving a 7/8 slugs should still be a relatively low pressure round. Those old Lee loads never quote a pressure, so it's hard to know what the margin of error is, but compared to some of the newer Lee slug loads developed by BPI, this looks rather modest.

[longbow]

I'll have to look that up. Good to know though as PepeLapiu says, in Canada it is difficult to get components and selection is generally small unless you live in a large city which I do not. We have one local gun store, and that is one more than we had a few years ago, and they have not been able to get powder for over a year. Primer selection is Federal 209's period. Better than none but...

I am still running on supplies I bought from BPI Canada about 5 years ago!

I used to drive down to Collville Washington about 1 1/2 hours away to buy my reloading supplies but Homeland security put an end to that. It is now illegal for a non US citizen to be in possession of powder, primers, brass, bullets. I can bring them into Canada but I cannot possess them in the States!

Now if I had dual citizenship...

[PepeLapiu]

Stupid gun laws and stupid government.

I just came back from the Philipinnes where I got souvenirs for my helper and a couple of friends.
It was half a dozen cigarette lighters in the shape of Desert Eagle handguns.

I showed the border guard my gun license so he'd know I am licensed to own real guns. But he took them away because, apparently, a lighter that looks like a gun qualifies as a prohibited gun while my real guns are legal.

He explained that I could use the fake gun to commit a crime. Now why, if I decided to commit a crime, would I use my fake guns when I have real ones?

It's a pretty state of affairs when you can own a gun but you can't own something that only looks like a real gun.

[PepeLapiu]

So which reloading manuals would you recommend for the Lee 8l7/8 slugs?

[Mike Robinson]

Contrary to what FullTang stated, the Top Gun hull often (depending on load) produced HIGHER pressure than the Gold Medal hull when using the same primer, powder (type and amount) and wad. This may be especially true with slugs. The Top Gun hull has a higher base wad, and thereby a lower internal volume. Generally, the lower internal volume will produce higher pressures with equivalent loads.

For example, based on the Lyman 5th for their 12 gauge 525 grain Sabot slug:

Using Universal, Win 209 and WAA12F114; 29.0 gr in the GM has 10,400 psi, while 31.5 gr has 10,700 psi in the Top Gun (ie, Top Gun has lower pressure with the same load in this case)

Using Herco, Win 209 and WAA12F114; 32.0 gr in the GM has 11,100 psi, while 30.0 gr has 9,100 psi in the Top Gun (ie, Top Gun MAY have higher pressure with same load in this case)

Using Blue Dot, Win 209 and WAA12R; 45.5 gr in the GM has 10,300 psi, while 44.0 gr has 9,100 psi in the Top Gun (ie, Top Gun MAY have higher pressure with same load in this case)

Using the Lyman 475 gr Foster slug:

Using Unique, Win 209 and a BPGS and a combination of fiber, felt and card wads; 32.5 gr in the GM has 10,100 psi, while 29.0 gr has 11,000 psi in the Top Gun (ie, Top Gun has higher pressure with same load in this case)

Using 800X, Win 209 and a BPGS and a combination of fiber and card wads; 36.0 gr in the GM has 10,400 psi, while 33.0 gr has 10,500 psi in the Top Gun (ie, Top Gun has higher pressure with same load in this case)

Using SR 4756, Win 209, a card OP and a combination of fiber and card wads; 46.5 gr in the GM has 9,700 psi, while 43.0 gr has 10,600 psi in the Top Gun (ie, Top Gun has higher pressure with same load)

[PepeLapiu]

I don't understand pressure versus velocity.
Wouldn't those two be directly correlated?

What I mean is that if I get a slug to shoot for example at 1500 fps with 10,000 psi with a certain load recipe.
I would assume that if I change the recipe completely and keep that same slug but still get 1500 fps, than the pressure should still be 10,000 psi.
No?

[FullTang]

Pepe, the pressure they are talking about is just a peak pressure spike, not the overall force of the gas driving the shot/slug, which is why it doesn't correlate perfectly with velocity. Generally speaking, if you want to get more energy in a heavier load, you need to use a slower burning powder to minimize this kind of pressure spike (which is what could blow up a shotgun.)

Mike R. is certainly right about those Lyman slug loads using card/fiber columns---those seem to perform very differently in the Top Gun vs the Gold Medal hulls; not sure what's going on with those, because the two kinds of Federal hulls are much closer with other loads using plastic wads. Maybe it would be better to say that you'll usually get slightly lower velocities and pressures in TG vs GM hulls, and with Universal and Federal wads that's definitely the case. Since that was the original question, I should probably limit it to that and never say never or always!

[longbow]

If all powders and primers were the same then yes. Back in black powder days that is essentially what they got. There were different granulations and so somewhat different burn rates but BP pressures are pretty limited and predictable.

With smokeless powders however, not only are there many, many powder choices from fast burning high energy powders to slow burning powders but the primer, cartridge volume and combustion chamber shape, and wad column all affect ignition and pressure.

A small charge of fast burning powder can produce the same or higher velocity as a larger charge of slow burning powder but usually at higher pressure as well. The slower burning powders are best with heavy payloads or high velocity buckshot or slug loads.

Shot recipes are geared towards a specific velocity so lead is predictable on aerial targets. As long as pressure is safe it really doesn't matter if the shot is propelled by a small charge of high energy powder at 11,000 PSI or a larger charge of slower powder at 8000 PSI as long as the velocity is constant and normally between about 1100 and 1300 FPS. Check a loading manual and you will see.

With different charges of different powders for a given payload the wad column has to change to suit the crimp height.

With slugs and buckshot the rules are different and velocities are not restricted to 1100 to 1300 FPS and in fact you really want as much velocity as you can get at safe pressure (and tolerable recoil).

Again, a look through a loading manual will show you that fast powders are normally used under light to moderate payloads of shot (say up to 1 1/8 oz.) and much slower powders are used for heavy payloads of say 13/8 oz. or 1 1/2 oz. (talking 12 ga. here) and again the slower powders are generally better for high velocity slug loads.

For instance, from my Alliant manual (available free on their website) I see Red Dot (fast powder) listed for payloads of 7/8 oz. to 1 1/8 oz. but no listing for Blue Dot (slow powder) until the payload is up to 1 1/4 oz. on up to 1 1/2 oz. Also the charge of Red Dot is from about 17 to 20 grs. where the charge of Blue Dot ranges from about 34 grs. to 40 grs. It take more energy and longer burn to propel 1 1/2 oz. to 1300 FPS than it does to propel 7/8 oz. to 1300 FPS at the same pressure.

There is lots of free reading on powder manufacturer's websites but having several good manuals is a must in my opinion:


- Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual (I have 3 editions)
- Reloading For Shotgunners
- BPI Shotshell Reloading Manual
- BPI Slug Reloading Manual
- Alliant Reloading manual
- IMR Reloading Manual
- Federal Reloading Manual
- Winchester Reloading Manual

And I am sure there are many other choices.

Longbow

.

[PepeLapiu]

Thanx for the book list.
I'm going to see if I can get them all.

[glenr1]

So which reloading manuals would you recommend for the Lee 8l7/8 slugs?

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/load14_04_25.htm Here is the current load info for 7/8 and 1 oz. Lee's they also have other pages in their archive. The slug manual doesn't list much for the Lee key drive slugs but they have just about every other hull and load combo. I also have their Cheddite manual and a couple of there tech papers for other info. Great stuff, and they are helpful on the phone with questions. Also if you haven't checked it out this is a forum on Euro hulls. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewforum.php?f=248 They also have been great on answering new to shotshell loading slugs.

[Firebricker]

I think for your first manual the latest Lyman would be my choice. It has a fairly wide range of loads including slugs and buckshot with most common hulls. BPI has lots of good manuals too. Till then list what you have and one of us can check loads for what you have till you get a manual but it is better to get it straight from source. FB