Southbend broken bolt problem please help

[bangerjim]

All you are doing with hammers and punches is expanding the bolt in the hole! It will be really wedged in there after a round with those tools.

[M-Tecs]

These do work as claimed http://omegadrill.com/wst_page3.html

Q: How is it possible to actually cut a HSS tap that is hardened to around 65 Rockwell C?
- Well, it's not easy but the Omegadrill can actually do it! Omegadrills are produced from revolutionary grade of sub-micron carbide produced to an exact formulation that results in a carbide grade that is extremely durable to handle the abuse of drilling through something as hard as a tap. We then grind a very unique point geometry on Omegadrill's - that gives the drill the strength to cut all the way down through the tap.

Q: What type of equipment is needed to use Omegadrills?
- Omegadrills are designed to be used on either a Machining Center or a Milling Machine. The most common machine used is probably a "Bridgeport" type Knee Mill. In some cases a magnetic drill press can be used – and it will probably need to be run at maximum RPM. Some people with extra large biceps have used the two largest sizes of Omegadrills with a portable hand drill. If using a hand drill is the only option then run at least 1,200 RPM, and keep and much feed as possible on the Omegadrill without allowing any deflection.

Q: If Omegadrills can cut through a broken tap then what other difficult drilling operations can they do?
- Omegadrills have been used to remove broken E-Z Outs / Screw Extractors, broken twist drills, broken / seized dowel pins, and of course they can be used to drill out broken screws and bolts without any problems. Omegadrill's can also be used to drill holes in extremely hard materials such as stellite, chilled cast iron, hardened steel and even ceramic tiles. We even had a customer tell us he used an Omegadrill to drill a hole in a granite surface plate!

Q: Are their any special techniques for using Omegadrills?
- It's good to keep in mind that removing broken taps is not an easy thing to do.
The two most critical appliction factors are....

1) Make sure the Omegadrill starts off drilling straight. Omegadrills are solid carbide, a material that does not handle very much deflection. In order to start off drilling straight the Omegadrill needs as flat a entry surface as possible. This is why we recommend "knocking" the broken top off the tap and spotting the tap with as large an Omegadrill as possible. If the top of the tap is down inside the hole, use a small diameter carbide burr, or a small endmill to cut away the jagged top of the broken tap.

2) Solid carbide tools work best with as rigid a set-up as possible. Many people find the drilling works best on a Knee Mill if they lock the quill and feed the drill using the knee handle. On a machining center, use the hand wheel / pulse generator and feed the drill using the lowest setting possible (probably .0001") and feed with very steady and constant feed. If you're in a situation where you can only feed by hand with a quill, then tighten the quill lock slightly, to create some drag, and feed with steady and even pressure.

[bhop]

I have a few more things to try now thank you guys. I'll update after I've got it out or exhausted all the suggestions

[EDG]

If you have a lot of patience find a diamond burr with a long shank.

Make a drill guide or drill jig plate with a hardened bushing to fit the shank of the diamond burrs.

You might use a carbide burr instead if it will but the stuff jammed in the hole.

Clamp your drill guide to the lathe bed and start drilling out the junk.

With a good guide to keep the burr in the center you will eventually be able to drill out all the old junk.

Just take your time. Maybe 15 minutes at a time or 15 min a day. Eventually you will get it out.

If you do not feel this is working you can find a shop with one of the old tap disintegrators. Those things will burn out the old ****. Just make sure the guy knows not to damage the casting.




Find another friend. He just wanted to play with your lathe.

[oldred]

EDG, you hit on something that hasn't been covered yet and that's "take your time". Something like this can be a difficult, long and frustrating procedure but getting impatient will likely lead to even more problems. In a case like this where it has become apparent the junk in the hole is not going to come out in one piece then the person needs to resign themselves to the fact they are going to have to "finesse" the pieces out a little at a time. How this is done will depend on each situation but it must be approached with precise procedures chosen with the intent to do the least harm to the part rather than a "just get-er out at all costs" attitude. Often this can mean a long time spent wearing way the offending parts with precision tools and sometimes it even means resorting to substantial expense such as buying/renting specialized tooling or farming out the job to someone else who is so equipped. The cost must be weighed vs the worth of the part and in the case here no effort should be spared doing this properly, personally I think one the best suggestions so far has been to rent a mag drill and drill it out with a carbide bit, but then that's just the way I would do it.

[bhop]

Oldred I agree when it first happened that's how everything got broke off in there I was pissed at the guy and just wanted it out. After the punch broke I decided to walk away from it for a while every other week or so I would grind pieces out or try this or that stopping before I got frustrated. Then I got to the point where I wasn't sure what to try and stopped completely for fear of making it worse til I had a plan. I think there is a mag drill at my work I am going to check tomorrow. I may have to take the motor off the machine to get it on right but so be it. I really appreciate all the useful posts greatly. Trust me this guy will never be back to my house.

[leeggen]

I have done this before, but you must take yuor time. You will have to get the carbide tip drills and slowly drill the junk out. Then get a lefthand drill and start drilling til the drill snagg the bolt. Use some heat and heat the area around the bolt, now comes the worst of it. Get some freon and use the hose and spray it on the bolt, the heat expands the bed and the freon will chill the bolt, at this point GENTLY turn the drill nad back the bolt out. You may need to keep thed freon spraying on the bolt, you will see frost but thaat is good. The bed being large mass it will hold heat the bolt will chill and shrink slightly and should come loose.
Best of luck and a LOT of patients.
CD

[JSnover]

I have removed broken bolts and broken taps by heating and cooling. It takes a lot of patience. Heat, see if you can turn it, then cool and try it again. Keep alternating.
Freon is scarce but my shop always has Dykem Remover on hand. Starting fluid or carb/choke/brake cleaner would also work but make sure the part is clean and dry before applying heat, the room is ventilated, etc.

[oldred]

While I agree heat can be a big help with stuck bolts it appears that the case here is that the piece is mechanically locked into place due to what has happened, there are damaged threads and distorted pieces wedged into the hole and in a situation such as that heat isn't likely to help very much. Probably wouldn't hurt anything if it is practical to get the equipment there to do it but I wouldn't rely too much on it, at least not in this instance. Also you really need a solid carbide drill as opposed to the carbide tipped masonry type bits, the solid carbide bits are a true spiral bit designed for drilling metal and lifting the chips out of the way and will drill a MUCH more precise hole. You don't want a carbide tip wandering around in there ripping out the threads, the idea here is to drill through the broken/stuck parts without doing further damage to the original hole.

[Eddie2002]

Maybe put a piece of dry ice on the area and let it get real cold then heat up the base and dump oil into the hole. The cold might loosen everything up and the oil and heat could break it loose. That's a real tough one you've got there.

[Goatwhiskers]

Don't know if I'm right but have always understood that the ways are of cast iron. If that's the case, you can't cut cast with a torch. I've removed a lot of broken off studs from engine blocks using a torch directly on the steel in the hole, when it hits temp hit the oxygen and the molten steel is blown out with no damage to the iron. Just have to clean out the threads with a tap. Messy but worth a thought. GW

[oldred]

Don't know if I'm right but have always understood that the ways are of cast iron. If that's the case, you can't cut cast with a torch. I've removed a lot of broken off studs from engine blocks using a torch directly on the steel in the hole, when it hits temp hit the oxygen and the molten steel is blown out with no damage to the iron. Just have to clean out the threads with a tap. Messy but worth a thought. GW

That would have been my first suggestion had this not been something like a lathe bed and I have removed quite a few that way but two other things wrong with that here also, first there are several pieces in there with one of them being an easy out which is not likely to cut very well. Second heating that way in just one spot could easily warp the lathe bed due to the uneven heating and if that happens he would be far worse off than he is now. When cutting with a torch either cutting normally or cutting out a bolt such as this the molten metal is NOT "blown" out, it actually burns and unless the material is easily oxidized that trick doesn't work very well and I doubt seriously it would be satisfactory here mostly due to the piece of the easy out.

A cutting torch works by burning the heated metal with the oxygen stream, not by blowing away the molten metal as is sometimes mistakenly thought. Once the iron is ignited the preheat flame can actually be shut off and if held steady enough the cut can continue with just the oxygen alone, when cutting a bolt piece out of a hole it's sometimes helpful to do this to prevent damage to the surrounding metal.

[JSnover]

While I agree heat can be a big help with stuck bolts it appears that the case here is that the piece is mechanically locked into place due to what has happened, there are damaged threads and distorted pieces wedged into the hole and in a situation such as that heat isn't likely to help very much. Probably wouldn't hurt anything if it is practical to get the equipment there to do it but I wouldn't rely too much on it, at least not in this instance. Also you really need a solid carbide drill as opposed to the carbide tipped masonry type bits, the solid carbide bits are a true spiral bit designed for drilling metal and lifting the chips out of the way and will drill a MUCH more precise hole. You don't want a carbide tip wandering around in there ripping out the threads, the idea here is to drill through the broken/stuck parts without doing further damage to the original hole.

All we know is he has a broken bolt. Cross-threaded? Overtorqued? Rusted? Some heating/cooling cycles and a lot of patience have saved me a lot of grief.

[akajun]

Im gonna throw my two cents in here. First, all these people recomending a torch, do not do it. This is a flame hardened precision ground lathe bed and you run the risk of removing the hardening, or releasing stress/ causing a distortion in the bed which will ruin it. NO heat/ welding/ torches.
Second, as good as Kroil is, I dont find it works that well on bolts that have a layer of varnished oil and grease on them like a lathe bed would. I would suggest getting a bit of modelling clay and making a dam the size of the hole and filling it with evapo rust overnight. This will disolve the rust and oil after a few cyles of this and then you can fill with kroil which will now work a little better.
Next, you should totally disassemble the bed, and place it on your mill table. It does not matter if the bed is bigger than your table, just block it up and make sure it is well supported around the broken bolt and clamp it down. You dont want this thing to move at all. Next go after that bolt with a small centercutting carbide endmill, Say 1/4" or so, just make sure it is smaller than the minor diameter of the threads. This will do two things, one it will make the broken end flush where you can evaluate it better to make sure you are in the center of the hole, and you can adjust the x/y table to cut to the bottom of the threads of the bolt. Peck drill with the quill about .001-.002 using the stop and blow out the chips each time with compressed air.
When you think you have most of it out, re center on the hole, start with a quality drill under the tap size for the hole, and begin step drilling. till you have most of it out. If you are lucky, you may find that the reminants of the bolt come out on their own with drilling, if not, take a tap and put it in the chuck and re tap the hole. The tap will find the old threads and pull the bolt pieces out.
Other options are to find someone with a tap burner or large sinker EDM like was shown.

[bhop]

Im gonna throw my two cents in here. First, all these people recomending a torch, do not do it. This is a flame hardened precision ground lathe bed and you run the risk of removing the hardening, or releasing stress/ causing a distortion in the bed which will ruin it. NO heat/ welding/ torches.
Second, as good as Kroil is, I dont find it works that well on bolts that have a layer of varnished oil and grease on them like a lathe bed would. I would suggest getting a bit of modelling clay and making a dam the size of the hole and filling it with evapo rust overnight. This will disolve the rust and oil after a few cyles of this and then you can fill with kroil which will now work a little better.
Next, you should totally disassemble the bed, and place it on your mill table. It does not matter if the bed is bigger than your table, just block it up and make sure it is well supported around the broken bolt and clamp it down. You dont want this thing to move at all. Next go after that bolt with a small centercutting carbide endmill, Say 1/4" or so, just make sure it is smaller than the minor diameter of the threads. This will do two things, one it will make the broken end flush where you can evaluate it better to make sure you are in the center of the hole, and you can adjust the x/y table to cut to the bottom of the threads of the bolt. Peck drill with the quill about .001-.002 using the stop and blow out the chips each time with compressed air.
When you think you have most of it out, re center on the hole, start with a quality drill under the tap size for the hole, and begin step drilling. till you have most of it out. If you are lucky, you may find that the reminants of the bolt come out on their own with drilling, if not, take a tap and put it in the chuck and re tap the hole. The tap will find the old threads and pull the bolt pieces out.
Other options are to find someone with a tap burner or large sinker EDM like was shown.

This would've been my first course of action but unfortunately the only mill I have is the milling attachment for this lathe

[akajun]

This would've been my first course of action but unfortunately the only mill I have is the milling attachment for this lathe

Then your going to have to send it out, Carbide drills in handheld drills, even carbide tipped or spade drills will break.

[oldred]

All we know is he has a broken bolt. Cross-threaded? Overtorqued? Rusted? Some heating/cooling cycles and a lot of patience have saved me a lot of grief.

Not exactly, from the pics and his description this thing has obviously become more than just overtightened even if that was what was wrong to start with. Heat is NOT going to help a mechanically locked bolt such as cross threaded as was mentioned or one that is stuck from mangled theads nor is it likely to help remove a piece stuck from being bottomed out, in this case the piece has been drilled, has a piece of easy out stuck in it along with a piece of a punch wedged on top of that and it has been mushroomed and the top threads ruined from previous attempts, heat (even if it could be used here) is very unlikely to help this situation. Heat can help with tight threads due to slight malformations, rust or just simply overtorqued but in any situation where just a tiny expansion of a VERY few thousandths is not going to release the stuck part then it's simply not going to help.

Cut the bolt out with a torch? Heat it with a torch (Think about how hot it would have to get)? Good gosh people this is a lathe bed we are talking about here!

That excellent post by akajun reads like a "how-to" from a pro and is a detailed description of the right way to do this! At this point there is only minor damage to that lathe bed but that can easily turn into a major problem or even destruction of this fine old machine. To do this right is probably not going to be simple and maybe even somewhat costly but considering the need to minimize the damage to an absolute minimum it would seem the thing to do. For sure heating&beating on this thing is not the right approach!

[bhop]

Not exactly, from the pics and his description this thing has obviously become more than just overtightened even if that was what was wrong to start with. Heat is NOT going to help a mechanically locked bolt such as cross threaded as was mentioned or one that is stuck from mangled theads nor is it likely to help remove a piece stuck from being bottomed out, in this case the piece has been drilled, has a piece of easy out stuck in it along with a piece of a punch wedged on top of that and it has been mushroomed and the top threads ruined from previous attempts, heat (even if it could be used here) is very unlikely to help this situation. Heat can help with tight threads due to slight malformations, rust or just simply overtorqued but in any situation where just a tiny expansion of a VERY few thousandths is not going to release the stuck part then it's simply not going to help.

Cut the bolt out with a torch? Heat it with a torch (Think about how hot it would have to get)? Good gosh people this is a lathe bed we are talking about here!

That excellent post by akajun reads like a "how-to" from a pro and is a detailed description of the right way to do this! At this point there is only minor damage to that lathe bed but that can easily turn into a major problem or even destruction of this fine old machine. To do this right is probably not going to be simple and maybe even somewhat costly but considering the need to minimize the damage to an absolute minimum it would seem the thing to do. For sure heating&beating on this thing is not the right approach!

I agree. I didn't know if I was missing something before making the decision to tear it down and have to move this heavy beast

[oldred]

I'm going to stray a bit from the original subject and talk about easy-outs in general -or "never-outs"- as I like to call them since for me they rarely ever worked, I say "worked" because I don't have them in my shop anymore! They may be ok for something that's not very tight to start with but in those cases there are other, and IMO mostly better, means of removal. It just seems to me that the principle behind the way these things work (supposed to work) is just counterproductive, being tapered they tend by their very design to expand the broken part and make it tighter in the hole with the spiral type getting ever tighter the more torque is applied to it! If a broken fastener is not overly tight to start with then maybe these things can work as long as the wedge type is not driven in to hard or the fastener part breaks loose before the spiral type has a chance to start expanding the part, still if the piece is not stuck any worse than that then other means may be more appropriate. This is of course only my opinion and YMMV but for me I choose not to even have the darn things in my tool box anymore!


About the only real use I can easily think of for these things is IF a part is broken deeply into the hole making it inaccessible to most any other tool except a drill and IF it's not so tight that the easy-out can get sufficient grip without having to expand the part then maybe it will be useful, still if it's loose enough to come out without expanding the part then a left hand drill will usually work just as well or better.

[MtGun44]

For FUTURE REFERENCE, not applicable at this point in the disaster. I think you need
to take the lathe apart and get the bed to a machine shop with a mill to drill it with
a cabide bit. Otherwise you are going to be in trouble.

Isn't help from "friends" wonderful? Take all your easy outs and throw them away.

Left handed drills are THE MOST RELIABLE way to remove broken bolts. I will NEVER,
EVER again put an "easy out" (NEVER OUT?) into a broken bolt again. Start with a small,
NEW and SHARP drill and get a perfect centerpunch, then get your first, small, perhaps 1/8"
on a 3/8" bolt, hole drilled.

Now - switch to left handed drills and start drilling with one size and then the next larger
in the set. Eventually, you will have relieved enough of the stress by hollowing out the
stub AND the left handed drill bit will grab and the stub will suddenly spin up out and
be free.

REALLY - I have done this a bunch of different ways and DO NOT use easy outs and
DO buy a left handed drill bit set. Of course, they run backwards so you need a
reversible drill. THE solution.