Hobby machinist - Is it worth starting?

[fast ronnie]

South Bend had a small booklet called "How to run a lathe."There are reprints available, and I think brownells or midway has them. (I don't remember which) I've been a toool and die maker for 45 years, and I learned a few good tricks in that little book, even after being in the trade for years. Some of our so called cnc machinists would do good to find some of those old ways of doing things. My current race engine was built on a ww2 surplus lathe and a chinese copy of a bridgeport. It was all done "on the dials." I don't even have dro's on my machines. It can be very rewarding, but can be frustrating at times, too. I've done some real strange setups over the years, but to me, the challenge is somtimes figuring out how to do the job, and that to me is very rewarding. As said by others, it can be expensive for the tooling, but much can be done with just a few simple tools. The farther you go, and the more challenging the job, the more rewarding when finished.

[Preacher Jim]

as with any hobby it is the satisfaction of making it yourself. you load your own ammo. and when you score a bullseye you did it. when i build something it is there for ever and my wife says, Jim made that for me. my lathe and mill welding equipment and wood shop are my greatest relaxation. and a lot of money i did not spend on doctors because i could work off my frustration in the shop. also someday hopefully my family will use the tools.

[wonderwolf]

There are worse things a man could do than start a machining hobby......I'm lucky I got started as young as I did....can't afford drugs or hookers now so I guess I'm safe.

[borg]

Can anyone recommend a good forum for learning?
I will be taking the next class at a trade school in Oct, and would like to learn a little first.
I've already downloaded the two South Bend books and several others on Amazon for free.
Have read through them twice now, and picking up more each time.
Thanks

[oldred]

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/forum.php

[Suo Gan]

I have occasionally bought estates and many people have machining as a hobby. Usually the story goes from the seller or their family is that it sounded like a good idea at the time to them. An entire garage was built around the machines and they just sit there idle. People get bored. People go on chasing rainbows thinking that the next thing they find might actually make them happy for longer than a short time. I would start small and cheap and see if it is for you. Take baby steps. There is practically no resale on these things or it is a hard sale to say the least unless you are giving it away. Just buy a little old lathe and work your way up. If you are still using it after three or four years upgrade a little at a time. Make sure your wife has a place to park in the garage instead of the lathe.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A hard sale on good used machine tools sounds like they ought to be an easy buy, but I haven't found them so. I agree that for many people it is a good idea to start at the shallow end. A cheap old lathe might set you off on a long hunt for expensive old accessories, and it can't be used for much besides gunsmithing. You might be on sounder ground with a good bench drill and a powerful bench-mounted belt sander, which do a lot of useful jobs, metal included, and are far more versatile for other kinds of work.

[oldred]

Actually this goes right back to the import vs "old iron" debate and it's a good argument for the imports! Cheap "old iron" American/European machines are almost guaranteed to be worn and parts/accessories specific to those machines are usually nearly impossible to find and the frustration sets in when the machine itself becomes the main project. The Chinese imports are NOT the junk that some would have people believe, they may not be industrial quality and durable enough to run three eight hour shifts five days a week but they are perfectly capable of doing 99.9% of the requirements of the hobbyist! The smaller entry level import lathes of less than 12" swing, quality increases greatly on anything bigger than that, are usually somewhat limited but are still a much better learning tool than an old worn out lathe with accuracy problems. These imports can usually be bought for nearly the same cost as the "old iron" of comparable size but they are "turn key" machines that require only setup and an initial fine tune to get them up and running, there are no problems with having to compensate for worn spots on the ways, slop in headstock bearings, etc. Often these entry level imports can be found used as owners are prone to up-grade as their needs increase so they can often be found for a real bargain, an experienced machinist can usually work around wear on an old lathe and still turn out decent work but it is almost always nothing more than an exercise in frustration for a beginner! My point is that success or failure at this hobby is very much dependent on the equipment on hand and trying to learn on a piece of equipment that requires special "tricks of the trade" due to excessive wear can lead to frustration and abandonment instead of enjoying an extremely fun hobby!

[Suo Gan]

start small. Buy the cheapest you can right now and work your way up. Most people that start machining realize they aren't getting a superior product, have invested much more than they are getting, and have several boat anchors no one wants.

To each his own.

[oldred]

Starting small may, or may not, be good advice but whatever don't start TOO small! The extremely popular 9x20 lathe (they are ALL the same lathe from the same factory regardless of brand including the Jet!) is about as small as I would recommend and even that's cutting it close. Even bigger for a few dollars more is probably a safe bet because this goes right back to the same problem as the old industrial lathes vs the new imports, frustration from being unable to do what is wanted. 12x36 import lathes were not expensive at all even just a couple of years ago but have increased quite a bit recently, still there was a really nice 12x36 with some basic tooling on Craigslist here recently for $1500 and it had been hardly used at all. The little 9x20s can often be found for $300 to $400 with some extras if a person looks around, again I am basing that on what I have seen for sale locally. One must remember that a really small lathe is for really small work, if the job won't fit the machine it can't be done and most folks here are going to be looking at doing gun work which precludes the smaller machines.


The little bench-top mill (the common Sieg type) I have in addition to my BP clone was $400 on Craigslist and it had well over $600 worth of extras included with it including a USA made 4" milling vise, various measuring tools, two dial indicators with magnetic bases, a dial test indicator with mag base, a BUNCH of new end mills (mostly Niagara and OSG) along with numerous other odds&ends and I have seen deals like this again since then.

[borg]

At what point would the ways be considered worn too much.
Is it the ways, or the tailstock?

ETA Also, this morning I picked up an 8" Craftsman grinder that someone had dropped on one end. The shaft is bent a tad. I don't want to beat on it, but though I might be able to use a cheater pipe to straighten. No big loss if I can't, paid $5 for it.
Thanks

[oldred]

At what point would the ways be considered worn too much.
Is it the ways, or the tailstock?

ETA Also, this morning I picked up an 8" Craftsman grinder that someone had dropped on one end. The shaft is bent a tad. I don't want to beat on it, but though I might be able to use a cheater pipe to straighten. No big loss if I can't, paid $5 for it.
Thanks

Normally the ways will wear most in the area nearest the chuck but can wear along most of their length. How much wear is too much depends on what you are willing to put up with, any easily detectable wear is a PITA and if accuracy is important it will have to be compensated for. Also the main bed ways are not the only thing to consider for wear, worn cross slide ways and headstock bearings are common on these older machines and those bearings are usually expensive plus rebuilding the headstock can fairly difficult to deal with -however not nearly as difficult as repairing worn out ways!


If you are talking about a bench grinder you can fix that shaft but be careful and take your time with it. You are on the right track with your proposed method and certainly right about not beating on it with a hammer! I repaired a Harbor Freight clone of a Baldor tool grinder using the method you described, I attached a 4' pipe (it's what I had at the time) and fastened the grinder down solidly then carefully applied pressure turning the armature after each try to check for straightness. The pipe/bar MUST be attached solidly to the shaft or you will probably never get it very close, that pipe/bar sticking out 3-4 feet not only supplies leverage but is also an excellent reference to the axial line running through the armature. If however it is loosely attached or just something stuck onto the shaft it will be useless for that and the armature stub itself is simply too short unless you also use a dial indicator to indicate it in, the dial indicator is a really good idea regardless but if you just use a loose pipe/bar then you will likely just be chasing the center and will be lucky to get it close. Having a 3-4 foot reference makes this task easy and even negates the need for the indicator. On a regular grinder (the tool grinder I did had a plate to bolt to) just use a bar with a centered hole that fits the shaft snugly and you will be right in business, making this bar is very simple and takes only a couple of minutes on a lathe and it's well worth the effort.

[borg]

Thanks for a good method on straightening the grinder.
I looked at a 10" SB last week, the indicated wear was .013 near the chuck, didn't check the cross slide.
The man wanted $2200 with few accessories and a 3 jaw, and that's the cheapest around here.
I may have to take a road trip out of state to find a good one.

[oldred]

.013 is more than enough wear to cause some real headaches!


This is a prime example of the on-going dispute (just a kind of universal dispute that occurs almost everywhere this gets discussed) of the old iron vs new import. While a 10" SB was of much better quality than a similar size import BEFORE IT WAS WORN the new imports will have none of these problems and the SB is only going to get worse unless it goes through a complete rebuild, unfortunately that sort of condition is more the norm than the exception for these old machines simply because of the fact they have been used for so long. For just a bit more than that price you can get a 12" swing import most likely with a longer bed, much larger spindle though hole, quick change gear box and NO WEAR! Those old SBs are classics but even if a person is willing to work around the wear the fact remains that the 12" import will take a lot bigger work that simply won't fit the smaller machine, if a job won't fit in the lathe it doesn't matter how well it was built. While there are many "nay-sayers" when it comes to the imports the facts say differently, these import machine are quite capable outside of a full time round-the-clock work environment and not only do they do more than just decent work from an accuracy standpoint they do indeed hold up quite well!


The little bench top "toy" type imports are another story however but it's a mistake to equate them to the larger machines, from 12" swing on up quality increases dramatically and outfits like Grizzly have some good machines in the 10" range at a very economical price.

[onefunzr2]

I bought a 7x14 mini-lathe from MicroMart in Berkeley, NJ because I'm fairly local and they allowed me to pick it up thus saving shipping charges. They cater to the model train folks. I am not, but somehow got on their catalog mailing list. They also sell mini-mills and drill presses. Another company that sells these small sized machine tools is
Littlemachineshop.com located in California. And finally, probably the premier purveyor of asian machine tools is Grizzly.com which has warehouses in Washington, Missouri and here in Pennsylvania. They sell from strictly hobby style to commercial quality.

You need to ask yourself what will fit your needs. I use my lathe primarily to convert spent 357SIG brass into 8mm Nambu brass for my Type 14 GI WWII bringback pistol. Both are bottlenecked cases. I can resize the necks on my reloading press. But the body is too thick. Since the 357SIG has a working pressure of 40K psi, the brass just ahead of the extractor groove is quite thick. The Nambu has a working pressure about the same as the 380ACP so milling a few thousands in that area is no problem. Of course I load them with cast boolits so there's not much wear and tear on the Jap relic. The brass lasts a long time too...I lose more cases than wear them out.

But a problem came along where I was happy to have that mini-lathe. I was rebuilding the final drive of my ASV Positrack rubber track loader. I was pressing all the sun gear parts together using a 20 ton hydraulic press. But I needed special tooling to get an internal selective fit 'C' clip to snap into place and hold everything together. Oh sure, I could have taken it to some machine shop and paid to have the work done for me. But as always the case, I have more time than $$$. So I found a 3/4" piece of scrap steel and drilled a hole in it big enough for the internal jaws of the lathe to fit. I set the speed to low and MIG welded the circumference to slightly bigger than needed. Then machined it to the final diameter. A little crude by industrial standards, but it worked perfectly for the job. And it was at hand when I rebuilt the opposite side final drive a year later.

I've got tube headers on that Chevy in my avatar. Changing spark plugs was always a chore as the spark plug socket was too long. So I cut it in half on my bandsaw, then chucked it into my mini-lathe to cut out the middle. I chamferred the 2 ends enough to MIG weld together. Then back in the lathe to smooth. Another homemade and handy project you cannot buy anywhere else.







I recently purchased a Grizzly G0704 mini-mill. I have not had much time on it yet but it did mill off pedestals on an aluminum intake manifold and the choke horn from a carburetor.





I have no room for full size Bridgeports or Clausings. Nor do I have 3 phase power to run such behemoths. I'm only a wanna-be hobbyist. These tools serve my needs and I have fun using them.

Don't let some of the members crush your dreams by thinking you MUST HAVE a fully equipped commercial quality machine shop to fulfill hobby needs.

[oldred]

Don't let some of the members crush your dreams by thinking you MUST HAVE a fully equipped commercial quality machine shop to fulfill hobby needs.

Couldn't agree more! I now have a BP clone (Taiwanese) but I also have one of those mini-mills that I find to be extremely useful, sure it has drawbacks and limitations but it's really good for lots of things too! Before that I had only my lathe, a welder and hand tools but using just that lathe with a home made milling attachment I scratch built my two highwall type rifles so while a shop full of machinery is handy it's not an absolute necessity.

[borg]

I'm still learning the lingo, so please excuse.
What is a gear head, as opposed to not,, belt driven?

[marvelshooter]

I'm still learning the lingo, so please excuse.
What is a gear head, as opposed to not,, belt driven?

It is how the power is transmitted between the motor and the spindle. A gear head has a transmission and you move levers to change speeds. With a belt drive you move a belt, usually flat, to different diameter pulleys.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A practice you sometimes see castigated by professional machinists is lapping flat bedways with abrasive paper glued to a piece of plate glass. I don't suppose it is perfect, and you must take care to bear equally on the two rails. It would also take time and labour. But if you do it until you can no longer get a feeler gauge between the left-hand part of the rails and the unpapered side of the glass, I can't see how you could fail to be better off than you would be in the rather extreme example of .013in. I'd consider a slightly low tailstock centre, all the way along its travel, better than angles and bumps. But some tailstocks can be shimmed between the clamped and laterally adjustable parts.

The smallest of lathes can be a godsend for things like screws and firing-pins,which form a considerable portion of gun fixing-up work. Even if it isn't screw-cutting, that kind of threading can be done better with a die holder which plugs into the tailstock, and ensures correct alignment. If there is adie, of course, but some rare special threads are available on eBay these days. Similarly, nobody can make trigger parts better than you can with the smallestof mini-mills.

A geared head for power to headstock is better than belts and a lathe with allor many of its longitudinal feed rates set by a gearbox is farbetter than messing around substituting greasy gearwheels. But a geared head on a mini-mill is a mixed blessing, if indeed it is a blessing. Mine is marketed in the UK as Chester, but is just the usual one you find in the US. The gears are nylon, and there is always a temptation to work a small machine too hard.There have been reports of the gears failing, and replacements, although the importers seem always to stock replacements (they would, wouldn't they?), they aren't cheap. But it hasn't happened to me.

Someone who makes a small lathe with a spindle bore big enough to accommodate the thick end of a barrel blank could clean up. I used to have a 13in. between centres Myford, and I did thread barrels, by temporarily soft soldering a cartridge-shaped mandrel into a short-cut chamber, supporting the barrel in the fixed steady, and cutting the thread leftward from the shoulder. But it is a lot of extra trouble.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MYFORD-ML1...item51d1fec71a

Still on the benefits of a good bench drill, this picture is the trigger guard I made, along with a hammer, for a Belgian Spirlet revolver. I just copied and enlarged a drawing from AB Zhuk's book and one sent me by a friend, found no contradiction, drilled out the outline and used a Dremel tool, files and paper. Another good way of spending less money than on a good machine tool would be a heavier duty electric or air tool to do the Dremel's work.

[El Bango]

I've been machining professionally for over 40 years and can't get along without a full machine shop at my disposal. That being said, it can be a very pricey hobby. Perhaps a local community college has a program you could enter and just have access to their machinery. Or maybe a friend has machines you could borrow. Question, do you wish to cast boolits, load and shoot them or be tied to a machine re-inventing the wheel? Of course I know folks that have a lot more money than sense and have nicer equipment than mine that just sits unused and depreciates. To answer your question my answer would be 'No it is not worth it for just shooting, reloading and casting'. Michael