New rifle for long range paper patch shooting

[Lead pot]

When Pedersoli copied Wolf's rifle they also put that chamber in it LOL. I had one when the Ped. Quigley rifle first showed up

[Gunlaker]

Chris do you have a drawing of that reamer? As you know I also have one of those reamers, and am waiting for Oregon Barrels to get a barrel made with a 16 twist and the contour to match this Browing bpcr. Then will take the whole pile of stuff to Eron Ahmer and let him work his magic with it.

Yessir I do. I've been meaning to put the prints that I have of Dan's reamers and bullets onto my web site. I have a bunch of them and now that Dan isn't here to share them himself I think it'd be useful thing to do.

I'll post a link to the .45-70 and .45-90 prints in a few minutes.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Don, here they are:

http://www.bcsingleshot.com/DansStuff/DanT-45-70-PP.pdf

http://www.bcsingleshot.com/DansStuff/DanT-45-90-PP.jpg

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks Chris

[Lincoln Creek]

Brent,
Yes, it is helpful. I appreciate all the info. I've been loading and shooting BPCR for about 12 years. In those years I have had a Pedrosoli rolling block, a Uberti Hiwall, an original Hiwall, and had a CPA 44 1/2 made for me. All of these was in 45-70 except for the original Hiwall and it was rebarreled with a Badger 40-65. The rolling block shot great, the Uberti shot terrible, mostly because of the trigger pull and curved butt. The CPA was a piece of art. It shot well and was by far my most memorable rifle, probably because I custom ordered it to my liking. I had to sell it when work slowed down about 6 years ago. I'm self employed. I did shoot it for 2 years and broke even. My original Hiwall was one of those "in the right place at the right time" deals. It had original sights, original wood, and was a silhouette model. I gave $900 for it. I never fired a shot thru it. Someone offered me $2,000 for it and it went out the door. I kept all my reloading stuff and about 2 years ago I purchased a Browning BPCR in 45-70. I had Lee Shaver rework the trigger. It shoots about anything I can put through the it really well. I've been playing with it a lot this year. I have an office 5 minutes from my house in NW Missouri out in the boondocks and have a range there also that I can shoot up to 400 yards. I also just had Lee put a new octagon Green Mountain 30" barrel with #4 Winchester profile onto a Pedrosoli Silhouette model 1874 Sharps. It weighs 12 pounds. It is 45-70 also and has a pretty tight chamber. I have not fired a shot in it. I'm saving it for my sons first BPCR.
I really thought the paper patch shooting would have been great to get into 12 years ago but back then a lot of people were discouraging it, but now it has a pretty big following compared to what it was. I love the Hiwall action. I will probably look more into the CPA in 45-90 for paper patched shooting or have Lee put me together a Hiwall this winter. I have only shot in 1 regular silhouette match with other competitors. I didn't do well and it was my fault. I knew nothing about the sight settings to start with because I had only been practicing at 200 yards and 400 yards. Someone there helped me some on that. I new nothing about what front sight insert to use. I also didn't realize it was a timed event for each bank of targets. I had never used a blow tube until that day. I had never fired prone before that day. My 45-70 load was with 70 grains of Swiss 1.5 and no recoil pad on shoulder or gun. I fired 59 shots that morning, after shot 25, my collar bone was done. I actually thought it was broke on the drive home. In that shoot my first bank was the Turkeys. I got 4 Then I got 4 pigs. By this time my shoulder doesn't want any more abuse. I got 2 rams, then my time ran out. They let me shoot the rest but just not for score. I got 2 more. Chickens was last. I hit none and at this point I was exhausted and in pain. My adrenaline was flowing way too much and I was nervous, it being my first match. It also didn't help that I was the odd numbered man there so I always shot last with the whole group standing behind me watching. I'm not complaining because I had a blast. I learned a lot from that shoot and most of the guys there were very nice and helped me a bunch. Since then I have been practicing here at home and will attend the next match in June and every month after. I don't want to win the matches or my class, every time I shoot I just want to do better than my last performance when I shot. I've been competing against myself for the last several years, but I was doing it incorrectly if I want to shoot the silhouette matches. I just love loading and shooting theses guns. My goal is to continue to shoot several silhouette matches every year and in a couple years attend a couple of the long range matches ant shoot paper patched bullets. You will probably never see my name in the winners circle, I just want to load and shoot to the best of my capabilities.
Thank you guys for all your help, and if you were in the military or are currently in the military, I want to thank you for your service. Me and my household are in your debt.

[BrentD]

Hey Lincoln, that's a great story - and two things. That Browning .45-70 probably has about the best factory chamber out there for paper patches. You should definitely give it a try. A friend with one shot some very nice groups with his using a paper patched bullet. So, you can dive right in with what you have at hand if you want.

Also, what are you doing next weekend? There is a 2-day regional match at the St. Louis Benchrest Club outside of Wright City. Not too terribly far for you. Load whatever you have and come on down and shoot. It is a very laid back match and we would love to see you.

Brent

[Lincoln Creek]

I have played a bit with some pp in th Browning. Still learning. I currently purchase all my bullets from suppliers and am completely out for a couple more weeks(I hope). With any luck I will be casting my own bullets this winter, depending on how this years business goes. I currently try to attend one event a month, at this point any more than that and I'd be divorced. If they would build shooting ranges next to a Kohls, Target, Walmart, and a Nebraska Furnatur Mart, memberships at those ranges would increase dramatically. The plus with my range at my office, well, it's self evident. I put in a lot of office hours.

[BrentD]

Yes, I can see where an office range could get a whole lotta use...

[SgtDog0311]

In following Brent and Lead pot’s embedded discussion here about cylindrical freebore (with 45* step) vs a conical freebore that steps from the “full” neck diameter to the groove diameter, it seems like it would be an interesting exercise (if barrels and reamers cost a dollar) to see how a chamber that compromised between the two would perform.

I’m envisioning a 40 caliber chamber with a neck diameter of .431 for instance, that retains the 45* step down but to a more mildly conical free bore which, say, went from .411 to .408 (groove diameter). If you applied a 2* taper after the 45* step at the end of the case mouth, you’d get minimal expansion.

With a neck diameter of .431 and a case wall thickness at the neck of .010, a bumped-up bullet would leave the case at .411, exactly the beginning of the free bore diameter, then only be swaged .003 on its way to the rifled portion of the barrel. That swaging would occur over about .120 of conical free bore.

Could be the best (or worst) of both worlds. Still, interesting to imagine.

I suppose you’d still run the risk of lead rings, which are not always a given but do occur.

I’ve never seen a reamer diagram reflecting that design.

[BrentD]

John, my .40 cal reamer just hopped in the mails yesterday. It will be a fair bit skinnier, but the bore is .401/.408. But no free bore. I'm against them, personally.

What you describe sounds a bit like the Browning .45-90 highwall chamber (but not like the .45-70 from the same make and model)

[semtav]

I find this thread very fascinating. There are so many ways to make a very good shooting rifle. Brent has obviously found a system that produces very accurate rifles. So have others. I am of a slightly different mind in that I think almost any factory chamber can be made to shoot paperpatch bullets very well. Some may be very simple and some may take longer than most shooters care to experiment. When I started to think about paperpatching, a little over a year ago, most people were patching to bore dia. Being a thumb seated bullet shooter, I did not like how much one had to resize the cases to shoot paperpatched bullets this way in factory chambers. So I thought I'd be different and shoot to groove dia. Little did I know that was the way most shot only a few years ago and most had switched to bore dia. paper patching. I was fortunate in my quest to acquire a mould from Dan Theodore designed especially for Groove dia paper patching. After very little experimenting, I found it would shoot extremely well in my Miroku 1885 45-90 with the free bore ( which Dan said it would) but it would also shoot extremely well in my Shiloh 45-70. It would also shoot as well whether I shot black powder or Blackhorn 209. After shooting that bullet a while, I decided to try the same theory on my 42 wesson which I had never gotten to shoot with GG bullets because of severe leading problems. Not only were my leading problems cured, but the load proved very accurate right out of the gate with the first load I tried. The only problem I see with the Groove dia, is the need to seat the bullet farther in the case. this may contribute to slightly less accurate loads if Brents' theory is accurate. I plan to explore that more buy breach seating the bullets in a Browning 45-70 after some discussions with Bruce Moulds to see if I can maintain or improve on these loads.
Of the three guns I have been shooting this way, the 45-90 has been the most troublesome. I had never gotten it to perform consistently the way I thought is should. It wasn't until I set up my 1000 yard NRA target that I may have discovered why. I had only shot this rifle prone, and was unable to do that at my range because of the tall sagebrush. So I had to shoot it off cross Sticks while sitting. I had never noticed how horrible the trigger pull was on this rifle because I was masking it while shooting prone. I'm not that good of shooter sitting and need a hair trigger. Hopefully that will improve my scores with the 45-90.

To make a long story short. Take your 45-70 out and try different things with it, Breach seat, Groove, bore whatever. You may find you don't need much more than that to have a very accurate long range PP gun. then you can start figuring out different angles to explore with a new rifle.

[BrentD]

semtav, the only reason folks were shooting groove diameter bullets some years ago was because they were coming from grease groove and/or smokeless powder backgrounds and not paying attention to history or muzzleloaders. None of them shot worth a hoot either. While groove diameter bullets can be made to work, it is not easy and generally not as good simply because the patch is not going to take it as easily and w/o damage. People were pretty stubborn and refused to even try it back in the 90s and early 2000s, but eventually they had to cave to results. It just plain works.

While I do think there are a lot of chambers that can shoot paper patches pretty well, most are sort of like the average NFL quarterback, good enough to win a few but not enough to really be competitive enough to be a regular Superbowl contender.

In the end, whatever chamber you use, you want minimize bumping the bullet up and then having to swage it back down. Each time that happens, there is opportunity for the bullet to get just a little more off centered. Getting the bullet way up in the lands assures that it will be perfectly lined up before it bumps up, and it never has to be swaged back down. Thus, the bullet exits the barrel in the best shape possible (although breech seating MAY be the one exception, but it has other drawbacks).

[Gunlaker]

Brian, are your bullets patched to exactly groove diameter, or do you go a tiny bit bigger? I patch to bore, but have one rifle ( a really nice Borchardt, that has a long groove diameter freebore. I've been toying with trying groove diameter patched bullets in that one. It's a .45-90 and would not suffer in the case capacity dept, as my Baco Creedmoor GG bullets only sit in the case about 1/4" anyway

Brent, your new .40 cal reamer sounds like a good idea. I think that a paper patched .40-65 could be the bees knees for midrange.

Chris.

[BrentD]

I would not use it for midrange prone, but maybe position, if I ever shoot that game. I will use it for silhouette though.

[Gunlaker]

I see. A little lighter recoil for improved offhand scores then?

Chris.

[BrentD]

Exactly. Otherwise, I'll take the .45 everytime. It is worth noting that I lack the courage to do a .38-50, but I swapped some emails with Mr. .38-50 (Rick Moritz) and he said, even he uses a .45 at midranges.

[SgtDog0311]

John, my .40 cal reamer just hopped in the mails yesterday. It will be a fair bit skinnier, but the bore is .401/.408. But no free bore. I'm against them, personally.

What you describe sounds a bit like the Browning .45-90 highwall chamber (but not like the .45-70 from the same make and model)

Brent, Thanks for pointing that out about the freebore. I know I looked at your diagram but somehow got it in my head you had freebore. Glad to know differently.

btw... should have said "I've never seen a Cast bullet chamber tapered like that". I have seen them tapering in that fashion with high velocity j-bullet chambers. Have not inspected drawings from the Browning .45-90.

[semtav]

Brian, are your bullets patched to exactly groove diameter, or do you go a tiny bit bigger?

Chris.

Chris. I hate to say, but I don't know right now. I went about everything wrong. I got the .454 mould first and then acquired a bunch of different paper. Since all my brass is fireformed and not resized I used the paper with the best fit for the brass. I wound up with one that was a snug fit, and one that smoothly went in to the brass. It was the second one that shot the best. So I'm pretty sure they aren't bigger than groove, but I'll measure a few and find out.

The OAL was just a fluke also. I cammed a round in the the chamber and found out it went in to the rifling about a 1/4 inch. After trying a few by chambering and then extracting I found what I needed to keep from tearing the paper. These were done on the Winchester 45-90 with a little freebore, so the shells did stick out of the case quite a ways.

I just used the same bullet/paper combo on the Shiloh also camming it in to the rifling about an 1/8 to1/4 inch. It may be as large or slightly larger than groove. again I don't even know cause it shot well. I did the same with the 42 wesson. just got a .424 mould used the same paper and patched the same way. Never measured anything. The target told the story. At the last Buffalo Rifle shoot I had several spotters turn and ask me what I was shooting because I kept hitting the same spot on the gong. So I know it is capable the few times I am.

Now I'm not arguing against Brents system being better. its just at this point I'm not as good of shooter or spotter as Brent and probably couldn't even make middle pack with his rifle. But I can take an off the shelf gun and win matches with it PPing if I do my part.

[Gunlaker]

Exactly. Otherwise, I'll take the .45 everytime. It is worth noting that I lack the courage to do a .38-50, but I swapped some emails with Mr. .38-50 (Rick Moritz) and he said, even he uses a .45 at midranges.

That's interesting. He was running the pits at Byers during one of the relays and, if I'm remembering right, told me he thought the .38-50 was a great silhouette cartridge but less good for midrange. I didn't ask him why. I have an original DST highwall in .38-50 RH but haven't shot it a lot. It's probably my most accurate short range rifle when using breech seated PP bullets though.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for the information Brian. I've got a long ways to go too. This is a very interesting sport, lots to learn. I think that there are lots of people with reasonably accurate rifles, and some with very accurate rifles, but mostly it comes down to the shooters ability to consistently put up good targets. Where I live there isn't much opportunuty to shoot in the wind. If I want wind then I have to travel. But, because there is little wind I can really tell if my hold, or my ammunition, is sub par. So holding and shot calling is something I really work on a lot.

Chris.