I was wanting a new rifle just for long range paper patch shooting(500 to 1500 yards). I know I will get several different response but would like to hear them all in order to weigh all my viable options and hope the discussion doesn't turn into an all out brawl between competitive shooters. If you had unlimited funds, time and was ordering a new rifle for this, what exactly would you order? Please be explicit and in depth with your selection and why.
45-70 is the universal do everything caliber but a 45-90 may be better if the recoil isnt an issue. 44-90 is becoming popular with some also. Riifle style Sharps, High Wall, or Rolling Block are about three most popular types. C Sharos also has a reproduction of the remington Hepburn, CPA makes some very fine rifles also. Handle as many diffrent make and models as you can and see what fits you and you like. One Plus to SHiloh, C Sharps, and CPA is they offer alot of options and choices. You can pretty much get what ever you want or need. Invest in the best sights you can afford. WOrk with the rifle and learn it inside and out. I would consider a SHarps in one form or another in 45-90 ( moulds and cases are easier to find) use a bullet in the 535-550 grn range loaded over black powder to around 1200 fps-1300 fps. Look at the diffrent web pages for these makers above and see what they offer. Keep in mind From these there is a wait period as the rifles are built to order. Pedersoli has some that may be very usefull also and are off the shelf.
As I already have several rifles that work fine, I'll take this a different direction.
If I was in your position of wanting/needing a rifle for shooting to 1000 yds, I would take a real serious look at a couple of rifles that C Sharps has on their instock list. There's a couple of hiwalls, one with a 45 barrel and another with a 44. I'ld request them to chamber either one to use the 2.4 inch case. The 45-90 may have the edge as far as bullet availability, but their 44-90 rem straight chamber is a reproduction of the chamber used back in the heyday of the Creedmoor shooting. Either one has the history behind it for doing what you're wanting to do.
Yes I have rifles in both chambers.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I have yet to work with the 44 2.4 so wasnt sure. I have worked with 45-70, 45-90, and 40-65 mostly and a little 38-55. The 40-65 and 38-55 may be wanting at 1000+ yards. I have had very good results with 45-90 and heavier bullets in the 500-550 grn weight range out to 500yds. My rifle is a C Sharps arms Hepburn in 45-90, 34" tapered octagon barrel, set triggers. Rifle wieght with sights is right at 12 lbs. Several little things to do first learn to cast very good bullets, the better the bullets the better off you are. Test several powders manufacturer and granulation Swiss and Old Ensford seem to be most popular on the lines. (Keepin mind with these 2.3" cartridges there arnt 100 rounds in a pound of powder). Get solid zeros for the ranges you have available to you even 100 or 200 yds gives you a place to work from. A good ballistics program known velocity and bc for the bullet your using will get you very close for come ups at longer ranges. Dont just shoot from a bench but from positions used also. If sitting from sticks or prone from sticks shoot rifle in that manner. Some rifles perform diffrently from position than the bench. This also helps you reffine what your doing.
With unlimited funds I'd build two rifles. A Tollofson style Sharps in .45-110 and follow the advice of Kenny W ( I love the heavy barreled Sharps ), and then I'd build a rifle like Brent Danielson's. Two different approaches that seem to work.Chris.
I am in the process of doing the same thing. I am going with an original Winchester Hi-Wall with a 34" Krieger 1 in 16 stainless steel barrel.
If I go with a CPA in 45-90, is there any special chamber instructions to give them for shooting paper patched 45-90?
Paul and Gail are great to deal with. Fine rifles well built and craftsmanship shows. Talk to them and chances are tey will know just what you want and need. I have a shillouette model in 40-65 that is a great shooter and the wood is just simply beautiful.
Chill Wills is another one who should chime in on this subject.
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms *shall not be infringed*.
"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
- Thomas Jefferson
"While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny."
- Rev. Nicholas Collin, Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789
Lincoln,
Having been in your shoes, and being a dedicated paper patch shooter with no interest in groove bullets, I set out do exactly what you are talking about. I had already been down the road with a .45-100 and then a .45-90. Both are too big in my opinion for a dedicated long range rifle with paper patches. I on't need that much powder and trying to load them down is self defeating. So, I put all of my money on .45-70 and I built two rifles. One for silhouette and the added duty of standing in as a back up for long range and one for long range and added duty to stand by as back up for silhouette. Both have won at their respective games and both have also won in their role as back up so I'm pretty pleased with the way it turned out.
Chambered correctly, the .45-70 will hold about 80-85 grs of Swiss 1.5 with minimal compression and a 0.06" fiber or poly wad. That is plenty.
The long range is a 16-twist. I think there is a significant edge to 16 twist and I would not build a long range gun with anything else but. And it can only be a .45. Lots of arguments are made for lesser calibers, but they have yet to prove themselves in my eyes.
I would, if possible, look for rifling that minimized obturation of the bullet. Pope rifling is one of those, but there are others. This is not super critical and neither of my cartridge rifles have it, but my long range muzzleloader does, and I think it makes a difference, though small and not something I could prove easily.
The chamber should be built to handle only bore diameter paper patched bullets. And after that, I differ significantly from others that champion "paper patched chambers" around the internet. Those are fine for hunting rifles, but not optimal for long range rifles. I think I have pretty good evidence to support this in the form of matches won and placed. Not many PPB shooters are winning much of anything with those chambers, but those shooting with a more conventionally shaped chamber, albeit way too skinny to chamber a groove bullet, have been regularly winning or placing in the top 5 or 10 at major matches. Meanwhile, those that champion these "paper patch chambers" the loudest have not done well at all with them in competition.
Both the rifling and the chambering are designed around the principle of minimal obturation is best. Narrower grooves/wider lands would also be in keeping with that principle, but I suspect that this could be overdone (e.g., Marlin microgrooves).
Last, I would build it on a highwall, flat-spring action because it is simple, easy to field repair if it breaks down at the range, has a decent trigger, lots of available parts, cocks on closing. It can easily be speed locked as well, and that has some advantages.
It would be custom stocked to nudge right up against the BPCR silhouette rules so that it can be a legal back up there with the very high comb (reverse slope to it). Not over 12 lbs and probably under it by as much as 1/2-3/4 lbs. It's length of pull would be about 15" in my case.
It would look a whole lot like the rifle at the top of this photo. but without the wide double set triggers. It would use either plain trigger or a single set with the standard S-loop lever.
So, there you have it, that is what I would do if I were in your shoes.
Brent
No their 45-90 reamer is designed with paper patch in mind. It will handle greasers as well. I would have them put the sillouette stock on it as their long range stock the comb is to high to be able to get down on the sight to be able to shoot much closer than 600 yds.Originally Posted by Lincoln Creek
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Don.
I just about had Gail put a .45 barrel on the rifle they are working on now, and I would have if their reamer was tighter then .482" at the neck diameter. If PTG would have got my reamer done as promised It would have been the .45-90.
Nice rifles Brent.
It's a tight slip fit to put a .446 diameter bullet wrapped in 8 lb seth cole in an unsized fired case. Gail said their reamer was designed to shoot patched bullets, and it does work rather well, but leaves the option to go with a greaser.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I have their reamer print. The neck tapers from .484" to .481" in .345" with a 4 degree transition and the throat is .2574" long.
That is a little looser then what I wanted.
It work fine for patched. this was at 800 yds, used up most of the test rounds I had loaded, the ground was wet and we couldn't see the bullet strikes, but finally figured out it took 15 minutes less elevation just to get on target compared to the grease groove setting. Load 82 grs of OE 1.5 in JBA cases, Napa rubber fiber wad, and the dry lubed felt waf. BACO .446, 525 gr money bullet cast from 20-1. I have a batch cast up from 16-1 to try when ever the weather will cooperate. Did shoot a very few of the KAL .444 tgb bullets at Alliance, and they definetly show some potential.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
This is what a properly designed, paper-patch-only, .45-70 chamber can do for you at 900 yds.
Brent, I have a couple questions. Does your chamber go from case neck step down directly to bore diameter with the leade angle on the lands? If so , what is the leade angle per side?
Also curious as to what op wad you use in the muzzleloader?
Brent that is an excellent target!
Chris.
That is a smoking 900y. That is as good as it gets.
So I have had the same question about chamber geometry - what you call funnel chambers and "some peoples" PP chambers.
If you have prints or numbers I would like to understand better. That is an honest question, not a loaded question.
Chill Wills
Michael it does get a little better than that. Someone, I forget who, has a 99-2x listed as the national record. Sadly, my last shot was a 9. Oh well. I had a perfect run at a 100 at 800 yds the last time I as at Raton when I called a shot out at 3 o'clock. It was an 8 at exactly at 3. I ended up with a 98-4x. At the time a 10 would have tied me for the national record. Now the record is something absurd as I recall, but I don't know the details. That was in the pre-Prolate days though.
As for the chamber, I have been assured many times by the authorities of the internet that I could never hit diddly with these chambers, but here it is.
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessi...er%20small.gif
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