Help with .410 heavy slugs

[victorfox]

Hello, first time here. Good day all!

I'm from Brazil and gun control here is so restrictive you only can have .22, .38spl and .380 handguns, apart from a smoothbore .410 "only" 2.5" chamber Taurus Judge. Due to ammo quantities restrictions (50rd of bullet round per year or 200rd of shotshells per month), the wisest choice here is the Judge, given the choices and the fact you can't reload without a painful and expensive permit from the Army (yes, we're already under communism).

The Americans are correct in pointing that the .45/410 with a long cylinder serves no actual purpose, because a native .45 Colt can be loaded with shot and become a quite good snake, vermin or small game gun, while retaining good accuracy with solid bullets of the native caliber. GIVE ME A .45 COLT (restricted to Army permit too) ANY DAY OVER A .410!!! But the Judge was born a .410 only, as it is sold here and it is quite good. The smooth bore (legal under 24" if gauge is less than 12, 12 under 24", and 10 bore and above are restricted) patterns quite well to about 25 yrds. The rifling and the .45 Colt stuff was added later to bypass BATF. Ever heard about the 28 gauge Judge? It couldn't be sold in America because it would have to be rifled and shoot some bigger than .50 cal bullet, but in Brazil it would be perfectly legal as a smoothbore. All Taurus did with the Judge was open the barrel, add rifling and tout some defensive stuff, because Brazilian market is so small they would bankrupt soon.

However! The most effective load sold here is a 4 00-buckish (8.8mm pellet) load at about 390J. Second comes the silly 95gr foster slugs. Then the tiny loads of birdshot.

Not the shotsize is tiny: the loads are 3/8oz only! And there's only 2 types of powder currently sold, besides Holy Black.

Now I've been reading the efforts of some guy, most notably turbo1889, longshot and Cap'n Morgan about their slugs. In 12 gauge we have here some quite good options, like the Gualandi DGS in 12, but these are only sold loaded and importing them would be painful. I'm sticking with the round balls, mostly soft fishing sinkers.

But the .410 is a completely different animal. A round ball in the .410 would be a lot worse than the regular 4-buckshot and the foster slug, which besides being so light and fragile, are not sold.

I came with the idea of a brennekish 180gr based on the .40S&W SWC bullet, attached to a wad of some sort (felt with screws?). One could shoot these without a stabilizer, but probably would tumble before some 20 yds? I'm not quite a machinist but would be quite easy to get some sort of hammer swager for such a slug, but the "tail" is something I can't realize how to make. Using a standard plastic wad without petals, glued with duco cement or similar would work?

180gr-ish would be fine. It's twice the mass of the current slugs, it's solid, and would not be a great problem stabilizing it. Or am I missing something? Main usage would be small/medium game (capybara or duiker-sized deer at quite short distances ~30yds), plinking and HD. The Judge is 6.5" and too big too carry.

Also, I learned that the 1/2 ozish load of buckshot uses a quite slow burning powder the sort used in full magtech loads of .357 Magnum. But the 3/8oz uses a different powder, quite faster, also used in the 44-40 and 45 Colt.

While this has nothing to do with the slug question, would it be possible to adjust the load of shot for a heavier one? The 3/8oz uses 6.6gr of the faster burning powder, the same a .44-40 with 200gr bullet does, but the 44 takes 7.7gr. I know it's quite an orange to apples thing and all the loads I read in the imported manuals for the .410 lists about 13 to 18gr of some slow powder like 410,2400 et al. I imagined, because SAAMI pressures of the .44-40 are quite similar to .410 (not talking High Velocity, but the regular stuff), if I could try 1/2 oz of shot (about 200gr) and LESS powder, like, instead of 6.6gr, some 4 or 5gr should be enough. Would I be losing much on velocity? I'm also affraid to test it and blow my gun... LOL

I know the common sense is "STICK WITH PUBLISHED LOAD DATA", but what if you don't have access to nothing, and the only manufacturer can't sell you the "other" powder they use because of govt s**t??? If I could, I'd never bother about a .410, would buy a .357 rifle/pistol combo and be happy.

I don't have other powder choices but components for shotgun realoading are quite easy to get, so I would have to adapt or use BP only, which is quite a pain to clean after.

Thanks in advance. Apologies for the long stuff.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I'm no expert on the 410, except for owning a single shot Boito at one time, but it should not be impossible to make it work with slugs. You would not have the problem with the short, stubby slugs which is necessary in the larger gauges to keep the weight down.

I would try an epoxy or polyester resin wad. Just a simple cylindrical stub, glued to the base of the slug. A simple mold could be made from a bunch of materials, including wood or Plaster of Paris - you only need a short cavity of bore diameter. You'll still need a felt wad or other means of a seal under the slug, though.

Be careful when using the "faster burning" powder you mention. Even though a 410 uses rather slow burning powder (for shot shells, that is) pressure has a nasty tendency to spike when the payload is increased. That said, a 410 will probaby digest much higher pressure than a twelve gauge before letting go - the one I had had chamber walls of almost rifle dimensions...

[MarkP]

The Hornady 410 has a full bore slug.

[bikerbeans]

A friend of mine has a 410 bore pistol and he shots a handload with three bore diameter lead roundballs. I don't know his load data but I watched him dispatch a 200 pig using this load.

BB

[ksfowler166]

Might try something along the lines of what was discussed in this topic. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...410-Slug-Loads I am still wondering if the OP ever did shoot a bear with a 410ga.

[GhostHawk]

I don't know what you have access to, and I am just starting to check these loads for accuracy.

But I have been taking 9mm empty brass case, inserting a 9mm .356 158 grain bullet, and drive it all the way to the base with a rubber hammer. I then loaded those for .410 in brass Magtech brass.

I fired just one yesterday, and it went dead center into the bullseye at 25m. But as I said I am just starting to play with these. Red Dot powder, and some custom cut overpowder and cushion wads, then a overshot card glued into place.

[Lever-man]

A 360 RB fits perfect inside the wad on the 410. While I have not tried it, seems to me that a 180 gr bullet for a 357 mag would fit inside the shot cup. Depending on the powder charge you might have to trim the shell length so that it would crimp over the bullet.

[victorfox]

I would try an epoxy or polyester resin wad. Just a simple cylindrical stub, glued to the base of the slug. A simple mold could be made from a bunch of materials, including wood or Plaster of Paris - you only need a short cavity of bore diameter. You'll still need a felt wad or other means of a seal under the slug, though.

Be careful when using the "faster burning" powder you mention. Even though a 410 uses rather slow burning powder (for shot shells, that is) pressure has a nasty tendency to spike when the payload is increased. That said, a 410 will probaby digest much higher pressure than a twelve gauge before letting go - the one I had had chamber walls of almost rifle dimensions...

Cap'n, thanks.

I took a closer watch to your work and have no access to the kind of molds and machinery you probably have. Anyway, I also looked mcb's (where's him?) efforts on his 163gr slug (by turbo1889, if I recall). This might be interesting, because it's quite heavy and being hollow based one could put it inside a mold and pour inside and make the the stabilizer.

I'll take a try on something of this kind. Which sort of resin you recommend? The stuff used with fiberglass?

About the powder, since the same powder is used on the 3/8oz load, I thought it could work, if I decrease it with the 1/2oz load. Anyway.

The guy who made this burning rate table puts the powder in question (CBC 219) close to AA2 and Red Dot, which could give a rough idea of the burning speed. The maker states the burn speed at 0.40ms, while the 220 (used natively in the 1/2oz load and .357Mag) at 0.95ms.

Thanks!

[victorfox]

The Hornady 410 has a full bore slug.

Thank you for the idea. I've seen this load before, but unfortunatedly, the slug seems to be quite light and probably will need rifling to stabilize it well. I guess in my case, the standard 4 00-buckshot would work, better, but I want a heavier and harder slug-only load. Anyway, since I live in Brazil, I will never be able to see this ammo, until we change govt and laws...

[victorfox]

A friend of mine has a 410 bore pistol and he shots a handload with three bore diameter lead roundballs. I don't know his load data but I watched him dispatch a 200 pig using this load.

BB

Yes, this sort of load is quite effective. We have one like this here, it takes 4 00-buckshot and is my 1st option in HD/SD. But i think it'll lack accuracy if we go 20/30yds away.

[victorfox]

Might try something along the lines of what was discussed in this topic. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...410-Slug-Loads I am still wondering if the OP ever did shoot a bear with a 410ga.

We're still supposed to call him 'crazy'???

Yes, I want to make something like this paraklese slugs the mentions (solid), but more brennekish, in the sense it has some wad/stabilizer. Casting/swaging would not be a problem. The thing is how to attach the wad precisely. I'll have to give a try on Cap'n Morgan suggestion, of cast wads of resin.

I never seem a real brenneke slug, because all the gun control stuff we have here, so most things are quite "improvised". I stuck with the round balls for the 12 gauge as it is way easy to cast or buy "fishing sinkers" and drop them inside a cut wad.

But the .410 round ball, while much better than a foster slug of same weight, IMO, is still quite light.

[victorfox]

I don't know what you have access to, and I am just starting to check these loads for accuracy.

But I have been taking 9mm empty brass case, inserting a 9mm .356 158 grain bullet, and drive it all the way to the base with a rubber hammer. I then loaded those for .410 in brass Magtech brass.

I fired just one yesterday, and it went dead center into the bullseye at 25m. But as I said I am just starting to play with these. Red Dot powder, and some custom cut overpowder and cushion wads, then a overshot card glued into place.

Hmmm... sounds promising...

I have access to very little, but .380 cases are scattered around in the range and are about same dimensions as 9mm. I also thought about something of the sort.

Did you weight the total payload in this experiment? How much powder? Red dot is quite a fast powder isn't it? What gun did you use?

Custom cut you mean is cardboard, felt, cork and such material using punches?

I'm curious to hear more from you.

[victorfox]

A 360 RB fits perfect inside the wad on the 410. While I have not tried it, seems to me that a 180 gr bullet for a 357 mag would fit inside the shot cup. Depending on the powder charge you might have to trim the shell length so that it would crimp over the bullet.

Hi! That's another thing I thought too, but I can bet it will tumble fast after leaving the barrel. Guy told me he used a hollow base .38 wadcutter inside shotcup, if nothing else, it seems to be a feasible idea. However, no accuracy reports. I want about 2" to 3" max groups at about 30yds for a slug from a smoothbarrel. Am I pushing too much?

[Good Cheer]

How far away do you think you need hunting accuracy?
I'm thinking that the distance is very important. A soft lead heavy boolit with fletching (glued on fiber wad) might be the ticket.

[Cap'n Morgan]

VF.

Fiberglass resin works fine. It's not as strong as epoxy (I used West System) but still adequate for the purpose. I pour my wads from the "binder" alone, but it wouldn't hurt adding fiberglass filler to the mix and fill the mold using a spatula.

[ksfowler166]

We're still supposed to call him 'crazy'???

Yes, I want to make something like this paraklese slugs the mentions (solid), but more brennekish, in the sense it has some wad/stabilizer. Casting/swaging would not be a problem. The thing is how to attach the wad precisely. I'll have to give a try on Cap'n Morgan suggestion, of cast wads of resin.

I never seem a real brenneke slug, because all the gun control stuff we have here, so most things are quite "improvised". I stuck with the round balls for the 12 gauge as it is way easy to cast or buy "fishing sinkers" and drop them inside a cut wad.

But the .410 round ball, while much better than a foster slug of same weight, IMO, is still quite light.

Sorry I was referring not to the paraklese slug but turbo's suggestion of a 40 S&W bullet in the 180gr-220gr weight with a tail of 1/8" .430 nitro card wads held by a #4X3/4" screw over 30gr of Reloader 7 powder with magnum primers.

For your situation simply replace the 40 S&W bullet with a heavy 180gr or 200gr 38spl. bullet.

[victorfox]

VF.

Fiberglass resin works fine. It's not as strong as epoxy (I used West System) but still adequate for the purpose. I pour my wads from the "binder" alone, but it wouldn't hurt adding fiberglass filler to the mix and fill the mold using a spatula.

Thank again Cap'n.

I'll try this later. I think i'll test first this design:

The first was used in some competition in a .398 caliber smoothbore. The others are .45 caliber. The third are .45 from Gary Barnes. I think if you more up one band you can have a decently front-heavy slug.

I have a 160gr .40 caliber boolit and if I turn it upside down and make some sort of base driving band, in the style of the first picture, all the problems can be solved:
1) I can load the boolit/slug without the need of attached stabilizer
2) I can load with the available powder, using factory loads (as I said, they are 3/8oz, using 6.6gr of a quite fast powder)

The only problem would be going to my friend machinist (30 miles from here) and asking him to improve "my" (in fact, I based it on some Russian slugs i saw here), which resembles a lot this:

and


I can't post it yet, I made a sketch in paper, but basically I took a 160gr .40 boolit, turned it upside down, shortened what was the "body", made a 8mm waist and added a .40" base, like the first pellet in the picture. I'll try to make a cad design then post it.

[victorfox]

Sorry I was referring not to the paraklese slug but turbo's suggestion of a 40 S&W bullet in the 180gr-220gr weight with a tail of 1/8" .430 nitro card wads held by a #4X3/4" screw over 30gr of Reloader 7 powder with magnum primers.

For your situation simply replace the 40 S&W bullet with a heavy 180gr or 200gr 38spl. bullet.

Oh sorry. That's more or less the route I'd like to take! I'll try the "spool-like" slugs first, because if they work, they would be easier to make.

[victorfox]

They arrived! I paid about US$ 6 to the guy who made them based on my paper sketches. They are loosely based on the Balle Blondeau, the Bob/Mike Chilko big (smoothbore) airgun and the Russian "Rubeykina" slug.



I'll make a mold with wood + car body putty and try to cast copies of these. IF they fly good, will make a metal mold, otherwise, back to the drawing board. I don't know how to use a CAD (tried, but no good), so I used 5mm x 5mm paper to draw these and the maker did very good, because I didn't put any other measurements than the diameter and roughly the meplats and length of body.





I have no idea about the cast weight of these yet, but I guess they will be close to 5/16, or 3/8oz maybe.

All in all, I have spent little and have little to lose, mostly my time, but it's fun anyway...

Now, if you want to get serious about smoothbore slugs, you really need to take a look at Russian's works. Since they spent a lot of time under communist restrictive regime on rifles, they have developed a lot of interesting stuff to hunt with they shotguns.
[I have nothing against the Russian people personally, i just plain hate communism and its agenda]

About the .410 specifically I found they are using a rifled choke on their Saigas, called a "paradox", like the English gun. They shoot .41 Magnum 195gr and .40 S&W 160-180gr (boolits in .410 cases/hulls) out of them with pretty good accuracy and amazing energy and penetration.






Best regards,